Barisan "the Old", 1st lord of Ibelin - Origins of Bailan le François

That’s not how we do it on geni.

If a connection is challenged and the arguments are substantial, we link through the about and not the tree, and discuss the evidence pro & con via discussion, as we have been.

“The larger community of scholars” would include, by definition, those publishing currently. We have quoted three as well as the primary source. Two curators who have been doing this on geni for 15 years have studied and evaluated; the case for parentage has not been made, at least in my opinion. Wiling to link through abouts, and of course the documents speak for themselves, so anyone can review.

Lovely illustrations here.

http://realcrusadeshistory.blogspot.com/2020/01/

From the beginning of the 14th century, the Ibelins claimed their descent from the Counts of Chartres, but most historians dismiss this claim as concocted. Peter Edbury, one of the most important modern historians of the crusader states, writing in 1991 claims "onomastic evidence points to a presumably less exalted Italian background, perhaps in Pisa or Sardinia.” (Edbury, The Kingdom of Cyprus and the Crusades 1191 -1374, p. 39) Six years later, however, Edbury had revised his thesis slightly, now suggesting Tuscan or Ligurian origins (Edbury, John of Ibelin and the Kingdom of Jerusalem, p. 4).

Sir Steven Runciman, in contrast, claimed that the house of Ibelin “was founded by the younger brother of a certain Guelin, who was deputy viscount of Chartres, that is to say, the Count of Blois’ representative in Chartres; and such officers in those days did not enjoy hereditary rank but were often drawn from lawyers’ families.” Runciman's preference for this version may have been influenced by the hindsight: so many of the 13th-century Ibelins were renowned lawyers.

Whatever his place of origin and whatever he called himself before coming to the Holy Land, the first man to identify himself as an “Ibelin” was a certain Barisan. Not only are his origins unknown, so is his date of birth. All that we know about him for certain is that in 1115 he was already “Constable” of Jaffa. To hold such an important and vital post, he would have had to be a fairly mature man, one who had already proved himself, especially in light of his non-noble birth. A date of birth around 1185 is therefore most logical.

That makes it four or five contemporary scholars disputing his origins.

Typos aside, the case for origins is not made.

The claim is not to parents actually, but as a brother of a non vicomte, who looks (by primary course) to have been a cleric. I suppose it’s possible he (Gilduin, abbé at Josaphat) could have been both an Abbott and a “deputy” count but the sources do not seem to support that. See https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/cfrachacha.htm#WaleranPuisetdied11...

Let’s give it a rest so others can see for themselves.

The geni approach is to show no parents when they are disputed. So that is how the Barisan 'the Old' should be shown.

George's Personal Index of Questionable Sources
https://www.geni.com/projects/George-s-Personal-Index-of-Questionable-Sources/17491

… Before, say, the 1100s AD, there are simply no notary records. We then enter the realm of academic historical research, where the sources may stem from archaeological work and from the thorough analysis of ancient documents. Much data can be collected from the works by contemporary chroniclers and historians. However, such works may be flawed because those contemporaries didn't possess the powerful means we have today for data collection, document preservation and analysis. And, alas, many works were also partial or complete forgeries, made by corrupt pseudo-historians to serve the interests of politics and religions in order stake particular claims on power and possession.

Apparently there was a mixup with a much earlier Chartres family.

From "Balian the Old" (Baxter, Robert S., October 16, 2000) < soc.genealogy.medieval >

Does anyone have the connection of Balian the Old of Ibelin to the Vicomtes de Chartres? Runciman says he was a brother but doesn't elucidate.

From "Balian the Old” (Stewart, Peter, October 16, 2000, 2nd & 3rd msg) < soc.genealogy.medieval >

Runciman didn't pay enough attention to genealogy: the origins of Balian and a possible relationship to the Le Puiset viscounts of Chartres had been much discussed before the publication of his magnum opus. The theory was first advanced by Du Cange, and apart from some questionable heraldic evidence his main source was in Lignages d'Outremer (Assises de Jérusalem II), chapter viii, which says that Balin was a brother of "conte Guilin de Chartres". This was taken to identify Guilduin, viscount of Chartres in 1028, founder of the dynasty of seigneurs of Le Puiset and counts of Jaffa, where Balian was constable at that time. The reasons why this could not be correct are set out in John La Monte's article *The Lords of Le Puiset on the Crusades* in Speculum 17 (1942), which you can find in most university libraries. A more distant relationship may still be possible, although the balance of probabilities is against this. ....

Please excuse my reckless disregard for chronology - Balian the Old was of course constable of Jaffa about a century after his purported brother was viscount of Chartres, which is not the least compelling reason why the information is suspect. ... "

He argued that Guillin was in all likelihood Guilduin, viscount of Chartres in 1028 and founder of the house of Le Puiset.96 ([[Hildouin IV de Breteuil, Vicomte de Chartres Hildouin IV de Breteuil, Vicomte de Chartres] Hildouin IV de Breteuil, Vicomte de Chartres (970-1060)]).

From Balian the Old” (Bunot, Jean, October 17, 2000, 2 msgs) < soc.genealogy.medieval >

If my memory is not failing me, the best authority on crusader families and dynasts is Count Rüdt-Collenberg. I even believe he is the aknowledged specialist on the Ibelin family. He as writen several books and articles (in French) pertaining to that family. He uses contemporary sources (latin, byzantine, armenian, etc). Again if my memory is correct, the Balian do not have any relation to the vicomtes de Chartres. They are descended from a certain Barisanus, of undetermined christian (Syrian ?) local origine, who rose to power with the arrival of the Crusaders. For the complete informations, please look for Rüdt- Collenberg books.I hope this will help. .... After making a rapid verification, it would appear that in a later article Count Rüdt-Collenberg proposes another origin for the Ibelin dynasty. Barisanus, castellan of Jaffa and earliest known ancestor of the Ibelin family,would rater have a yet undetermined Italian background (probably Pisa-Sardinia or Norman Sicilian). In any case, he still had absolutely no family connection to the vicomte.