Barisan "the Old", 1st lord of Ibelin - Origins of Bailan le François

seems to follow the same 1st conclusions as ML, also listed are the others found in the various Wikipedias of the various languages
but however ML identifies an exact doble coinciding generation above/!\

B. SIGNORI DI RAMA (IBELIN)
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/JERUSALEM%20NOBILITY.htm#BalianIbe...

The origin of this family is unknown but was presumably relatively modest, as contemporary chroniclers were silent on the point.

--> According to the Lignages d'Outremer[777], the first known member of the family, Balian, was the brother of Guilin Vicomte de Chartres. <--

-It has also been speculated that the name "Balian" is of Italian origin, being the French version of Barisanus, a name which is found in Pisa and Sardinia. If this is correct, Balian may have been a Pisan who came to Palestine in the entourage of Daibert Archbishop of Pisa, who was appointed Patriarch of Jerusalem[778].

-Alternatively, the derivation could be from "inhabitant of Bari" (in Calabria).

-Rüdt-Collenberg[779] favours a Norman origin from southern Italy. This is based on the likelihood that Hugues du Puiset Count of Jaffa would have chosen a fellow countryman as his constable at Jaffa, and also because the first names of individuals in charters in which Balian is listed are more Norman than Italian in origin (Jordanus, Osmond, Raoul, Humbertus, Ramundus, Radulfus).

Of all the families of Outremer, the Ibelin were unique in the extent of their dynastic connections with the royal families of Jerusalem and Cyprus and the length of time over which their political influence in these states lasted, although they were never promoted to kingship themselves.

/!\ {but here is the generational anomaly exactly double and also without even [square brackets] of about perhaps presumed}->

*BALIAN [I] ([1070/80]-[Feb 1141/27 Sep 1145). .. ...
m HELVIS, daughter of ---
Balian [I] & his wife had [four] children:

**1. BALIAN [II] (-[1150/52]). .. ...
m ([1130]) as her first husband, HELVIS of Rama, daughter of BAUDOUIN Lord of Rama & his wife Stephanie --- ([1115]-after 1158). .. ... ....
she married secondly (1152) Manassès de Hierges, Constable of Jerusalem, . ..
Balian [II] & his wife had six children:

just added primary sourced profile: Gilduin du Puiset

& their sister: Odeline du Puiset =
wife of Gaucelin IV, de Lèves (all primary sourced:)

and here's the problem, that even today like 6 years ago, this is certainly a duplicate in the de Lèves tree introduced in 2009

but which one? this one? Gauslinus II de Leves
(I didn't find the verse there and I'm not finding it now to orient myself, and there is absolutely nothing written or highlighted anywhere:)

for sure I had definitely identified:

2009 Goselin V de Lèves, Seigneur de Lèves
as just now 2025 added Goselin V de Lèves, Seigneur de Lèves

because father, wife, and son match..
we here now should hear kindly the 2 few ADMN involved Private User & Justin Durand .

Well done Livio Scremin. The important profile of Gilduin du Puiset was missing here and glad you added the same as this person is refrences as the brother of BALIAN LE FRANCOIS in documents written in the 13th century and subsequent publications.

Regarding Gaucelin IV de Lèves he must be part of this tree which needs to be understood and added accordingly. https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000003828338021

Some of the curators that used to work on such branches are @Sharon Doubell , Carl Gustav Verbraeken , Erica Howton , Jason Scott Wills

Primary sources are key as secondary sources when they have errors propogate to all further publications, simply because of copy-paste without verification of details.

Hi Sharon Doubell :

Please see the below link for accuracy. It was okay the way it was and no need to disconnect I am afraid. Hope you have not misunderstood.

https://media.geni.com/p14/f3/d4/95/01/5344486834e56153/ibelin-_vel...

Hi Sharon,

The help required was not for the ibelin tree directly. Could you undo the changes as it's not accurate as stands. The original set-up before you changed was correct and accurate as per archive records.

Help was needed for Gaucelin IV de Lèves to be merged with existing that Livio Scremin was trying to fix.

Livio Scremin can explain better what needs to be merged.

Bailan le François is Barissan (founder of the house of ibelin). The original set-up was perfectly accurate.

Primary source: Lignages d'Outremer

Thanks Sharon Doubell

Hi Sharon Doubell: it's not back to its original accurate form. Can you undo all you did today. The merge help needed was for Gaucelin IV de Lèves

No need of a generation above dear Sharon Doubell. It was just perfect the way it was. Could you please undo today's changes back to original. Then all falls in place accurately.

Remove the MP on new profiles created today. That will help too. Thank you

Sharon Doubell : The above secondary source needs to be atsted with a pinch of salt. See the below evidence published and accepted by academic approval and in the archived library records, The below is reproduced primary evidence re-published in the 20th century from documents and manuscripts of the 13th century.

https://media.geni.com/p14/86/17/a6/59/534448683ba19f7d/evidence_or...

The current tree wth changes made by you today is inaccurate I am afraid. :(
Appreciate its not straight forward but the burden of proof lies on evidence to be produced against the primary sources as above which as stands is None. Thanks

Sharon Doubell: Livio Scremin needed help from you for this duplication and merges only :

Goselin V de Lèves, Seigneur de Lèves