Elisabeth Shaw - Wrong Parents/dates

It seems to be posed in the 'Shaws of Sauchie' images on https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Shaw-7875 that James V's mistress, Elizabeth Shaw of Sauchie (https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JamesVdied1542B), must be the sister of Sir Alexander Sauchie Schaw of Sauchie and the daughter of Sir James Schaw of Sauchie & Alison Hume

cf Elizabeth Schaw of Sauchie

So, despite the About - the Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford who married Robert Gib of Carribber was not James's mistress.

And whether she also married Henry Lindsay, 13th Earl of Crawford or that was a different Elizabeth Shaw, daughter of James Shaw of Sauchie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Lindsay,_13th_Earl_of_Crawford) is an open question, as far as I can see.

And not, as stated in the About, a given. (As far as I can see - open to correction).

cf https://archive.org/details/anent1884/page/117/mode/1up

The Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford who married Henry Lindsay, 13th Earl of Crawford is a later woman than James’ mistress. She had a relationship to Queen Anne of Denmark, and so did Mary Schaw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Denmark

I am finding this blog informative.

Does this chart make it look like there were “two” James Schaws, sons of Alexander, one natural, and one born son of Elizabeth? I dont think thats right based on notes.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000147639149829

So I believe Elizabeth Schaw of Sauchie is with the correct parents now, & it fits that its this Elizabeth who married Robert Gib of Carribber

Her namesake Great niece is many years later. Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford

And here’s our confirming evidence for the relationships. In summary:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000175847591899

Life & Times of Robert Gib, lord of Carriber. Page 223. https://digital.nls.uk/histories-of-scottish-families/archive/95248...

Elizabeth Schaw MP
Gender: Female
Birth: circa 1510
Sauchie, St Ninians, Stirlingshire, Scotland
Death: 1559 (44-53)
Scotland
Immediate Family:
Daughter of Sir James Shaw, of Sauchie and Alison Hume
Wife of Robert Gib of Carribber
Ex-partner of James V, King of Scots

Thanks Erica.

Still trying to check this "Does this chart make it look like there were “two” James Schaws, sons of Alexander, one natural, and one born son of Elizabeth? I dont think thats right based on notes.

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000147639149829

Erica Howton I can't find the profile for the other 'natural' James Shaw. Am I missing something?

I think the chart is wrong and theres only the one James. Two sons were legitimized in 1546, James and Patrick. John (by Elizabeth Cunningham) was the “legal” son and heir, but the family business of Master of the Wine Cellar went to oldest son.

Regarding which Elizabeth is the mistress of James V, doesn't this suggest in the last paragraph that it's the one who was the daughter of Sir James Schaw of Sauchie

"7. (Sir) James Shaw of Sauchie .. There is a charter in the Register of the Great Seal to Marjory Kirkcaldy, spouse of James Shaw of Sauchie in liferent, and to James Shaw, her son and heir apparent, heritably of the lands of Coldoun, Cavilstoun, and Brunthill, in the shire of Kinross, on resignation by the said James Shaw of Sauchie, dated 2 May, 1558. (Ibid. Lib. 31, No. 421.) James Shaw of Sauchie had a charter from James VI. to himself and Marjory Kirkcaldy, his spouse, in liferent, and to James Shaw, their son, in fee of the barony of Sauchy, elated Apud Castrum de Stirling, 4 August, 1578. (Ibid, Lib. 35, No. 548, and Lib. 36, No, 586, and Writs of Sauchie.) John Shaw, son lawful to ane right honourable man, SirJames Shaw of Sauchy, knight, is named in 1582. (Writs of Sauchie.) " Will Shaw, Master of the Wark, is cal'd brother to John Shaw of Broiche in 1582, in a charter to him by James Shaw, appearand of Sauchy." (Ibid.) [Crawfurd, in his Notes of Sauchie Writs, says it was this Sir James's daughter who was the king's mistress [query, Sir Alexander]. Elizabeth Shaw had several children by the King James V., the " Gude man of Ballengeich." 1 532, a son was born [see Treasurer's Accounts, April 2, 1532]. This son was afterwards James, Abbot of Melrose, his Tutor, the famous George Buchannan. Abbot James died 1 558.] (Lord Cathcart.)" https://archive.org/details/anent1884/page/111/mode/1up pp109-111

ie Elizabeth Shaw, Countess of Crawford

RE: I think the chart is wrong and theres only the one James. Two sons were legitimized in 1546, James and Patrick. John (by Elizabeth Cunningham) was the “legal” son and heir, but the family business of Master of the Wine Cellar went to oldest son.

Oh, I understand you. Yes I agree with you that the chart is wrong.

Remember that there are 2 Sir James Schaw’s of Sauchie. The one who married Alison Hume died 1528 - Sir James Schaw of Sauchie - and was succeeded by his son Alexander (died 1547). Sir Alexander Sauchie Schaw of Sauchie Had a sister Elizabeth and a son James, but no son Alexander. Elizabeth who married Robert Gib of Carribber died 1559: she’s the same generation as King James V (they were together when he was a teenager - so she couldnt have been much younger). So this seems the only possible Elizabeth. The countess of Crawford died in 1644, so she was not having the Kings son in 1532 (known birth date, there are payments recorded to his nurse).

Good point.

:-)

This one was fun! Except everyone has the same names and no dates, and the sources talk backwards.

Oh, dear. Looks like my source for the Robert Gib of Carribber family flawed, and Wikipedia (without citation) says Elizabeth, King’s Mistress, died in 1536.

Review of “The Life and Times of Robert Gib“ by Sir George Duncan Gibb, Bart., of Falkland and of Carribber (1874)

https://books.google.com/books?id=H-EiAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA417&lpg=PA417&d...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gibb_(courtier)_

John Gibb of Knock and Carribber (c.1550-1628) was a Scottish landowner and courtier.

Carribber Castle, drawn by Alexander Archer, May 1837

He was a son of Robert Gibb and Elizabeth Schaw. His mother is sometimes said to have been the Elizabeth Schaw who a mistress of James V of Scotland and mother of James Stewart, Commendator of Kelso, but she died in 1536. He was however a kinsman of the Master of Work, William Schaw and Elizabeth Schaw, Countess of Annandale.

——

If this is true, we’re missing an Elizabeth Schaw.

Damn :-)

Heres the good doctor who tried to relate himself as descended from half brother of King James V’s son.

I so want to do his tree now.

http://internatlibs.mcgill.ca/Gibb.htm

In his later years, as well as publishing several papers on longevity and (under the pseudonym Carribber) a geology book for “young persons” dedicated to his daughter, Ricarda Cecilia (28), Gibb became obsessed with tracing his decent from the Scottish family of Gib and establishing his claim to the defunct baronetcy of Falkland and Carribber — a pursuit that resulted in some scorn. As noted in one of his obituaries, “unfortunately he left the beaten track he had so far trod so well and devoted the remaining years of his life in seeking after a bauble which, when found, was worthless” (8, p. 529). Gibb published two pamphlets on this genealogical research (29, 30) and a book in 1874 (31); sadly, these publications sullied his considerable reputation. The eminent Edinburgh historian Aeneas J. G. Mackay reviewed the book at some length for the literary journal Academy, noting,

"It is, under the disguise of a family history, an attempt to construct a family, and establish a title to a baronetcy which would at once be rejected if presented to any competent Court. (32, p. 417)

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A cautionary tale!
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Will try to find a citation for that death date of the King’s mistress, but meanwhile, I’m disconnecting her from the Gibs.

On reflection, it doesn't make a lot of sense that Alexander’s sister married a “stirrup man.” John Gib’s sister Elpseth made hats.

Elizabeth Gibb (Schaw) Created as wife of Robert Gib of Carribber