Welsh patronymics

I favor the Welsh for display, but as long as the profiles show up with any usual variant, I'm fine.

The further back, the more the Welsh is important to me as display -- 1570 is pretty late, though!

and if the sources say that one language or another is usually used for a profile, that's important to me.

I like the ability to enter and label the different languages, in the profiles that span more than one.

Do you enter the patronymic in the surname field?

I do --

not sure if you're asking this, but the "ap" or the "verch" isn't a middle name -- it's part of the surname.

Yes.

Ok good. We've never actually written up Welsh naming conventions, i don't think, and I sometimes see different entry conventions wanted for patronymics in other languages, so wanted to make sure I'm consistent.

More thoughts:

Sometimes you'll find a string of names in the surname -- "Rhys ap Daffydd ap Madoc," for instance, should have Rhys as the first name and everything else as the surname. He's the son of the Daffydd who is the son of Madoc.

Also. If our Rhys has a modifier, such as "Fychan" (the young), my preference is to put it as part of the first name; it's not a middle name either.

And probably this is already covered, but when women get married they do now all of a sudden become the sons of their fathers in law. When Gwladys verch Ifor marries Rhys Fychan ap Twdwr, she remains "verch Ifor." I see this mistake a lot.

"now" is "not." Sorry. Working on a mobile. Will go back to computer.

While we're at it, how detailed are we getting about the spellings?

The problem with the patronymics has been, to my mind, so pervasive that I don't worry about the spellings.

But "ap" should be "ab" before vowels. And "ferch" doesn't become widely used until about the 15th century in Welsh records, though the English records continue to use "verch," that being how the word sounds. So the later names can be legitimately spelled both ways.

In my own database I like to worry about these things, but in messing with the Welsh on the geni world tree I have been Keeping It Simple.

But are these spelling distinctions part of our Large Project?

Anyway. Back to Mathai MATHEWS, of Swansea, Wales --

If indeed his father's name is John, then probably we should not give him a name in Welsh. But if his father was John in Welsh, then really, I do believe, he is

Matthew ab Ifan (this would later become Evan)
or Matthew ab Ieuan (not the same as Owain; that's got a different root)

depending on how his dad said his name. Or maybe where he came from. We have now hit the limits of my helpfulness.

No, thinking about this, that won't work. If indeed he's showing up in the records as Matthew ap John, he'll need to be found that way.

He's not only fairly late, he's got a life in England. So a mixture (and indeed the "Matthew" spelling) seems appropriate.

Great hints about "ap" vs "ab" and "ferch" vs "verch."

I think this is an interesting case to develop naming conventions around, as he had an English identity "and" a Welsh identity "and" an American one through his immigrant children. And we now have more fields to utilize so can work it through better to accomodate the varying records. And yes, Matthew ap John seems really off doesn't it! Like Anglicized Welsh or something ... Shouldn't it be Mathew (Mathiau?) (spelling?) ab Ieuen then? (the Jones surname in English ,..)

I though the string of patronyms belonged in a last name field so that's a relief.

I'm highly interested in what I think of as the "border cases," the people who span more than one language. Truthfully, I think that the names you've got him under all make sense. And others would make sense as well.

So he had a Welsh name -- DID his father call himself "John"? -- and an English name at Oxford, and then one that his first descendants knew him by.

Yes, let's think about this.

I'm glad I looked some more, the ALT names just keep on coming ...

* [http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s1-MATT-MAR-1606.html Dictionary of Welsh Biography] MATTHEWS , MARMADUKE entry retrieved Sept 2015

MATTHEWS , MARMADUKE ( 1606 - 1683? ), ejected minister ; b. at Swansea , 1606 , the son of Matthew Johnes of Nydfywch , Llangyfelach , and Mary his wife.

(and more family details ...)

Next stop should be chasing the sources cited.

https://discover.llgc.org.uk/default.ashx?q=Marmaduke+Matthews&...

Ooooo parents & more for Matthew ap John ....

http://www.google.com/search?q=Manasseh+Matthews+Swansea&ie=UTF...

The Mathews Family

Marmaduke Matthews was born in 1606, the son of Matthew ap John or Matthew Johnes, as he was also called, of Nydfwch Farm, Llangyfelach, Swansea and his wife Mary. Matthew Johnes had inherited the Nydfwch Estate from his father John ap William ap David Nydfwch ap Richard (b. circa 1570). There is a very worn brass plaque in Llangyfelach church dedicated to the memory of Matthew (d. 1623) and his wife Mary (d. 1631) which was placed there by their son Marmaduke. It must have been at this church that this Christian family used to worship together.
Marmaduke was the second of eleven children, three girls and eight boys, his older brother Thomas (1599-1638) being the one who inherited the family estate. The Matthews family were one of the more influential landowning families in the vicinity, owning much of the area known as Llys Nini, much of which subsequently was swallowed up by the Penllegaer estate after the Matthews line failed in 1720.

Nydfwch Farm itself no longer exists, but the site is still identifiable, immediately to the south of Penllegaer, and the farm’s name survives in the title still given to local woodland: Graig Neddfwch.

Llys Nini, one of the Matthews family farms, was an early focus of preaching in the area, reflecting the family’s Puritan sympathies. There is a story of early non-conformist preaching taking place at Llys Nini, with the preacher standing in the loft opening of the house, above the living quarters, and preaching to the crowd gathered in the farmyard below. Llys Nini is now owned by the RSPCA.

Excellent. In this case, the Englished Welsh is the correct spelling.

Wonderful detective work!