Peter "le Clerc" de Thornton - Wife Unknown and Parentage Dispute

I again ask Steven Mitchell Ferry to take a look, as this is discussed by Wollcott, the best authority in the area.

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id152.html

Removed the name “ Amicia (Cecily) Kingsley” from the profile of wife of Peter ‘le Clerc’ and added her biography. Ormerod names her “Agnes” on one page.

Biography

https://cybergata.com/roots/6967.htm

George Ormerod's The History of County Palatine and City of Chester, Vol II, p. 15

Randle, sixth Earl of Chester, by deed without date, granted to this Peter a boat, and the right of fishing on the Dee from Chester to Eaton; and by another deed, missing the date, granted to Peter, an acquittance from attendance on the court of the shires of hundred and pleas of the forests, from puture of serjeants of the peace, and payment of pannage in the earl's forest. [Harl. MSS. 2131, p. 34] Peter the Clerk has a son and heir, Randle; and a daughter named Agnes, who married William de Blore.

George Ormerod's The History of County Palatine and City of Chester, Vol II, pp. 15, 17

Randle was the son and heir of Peter the Clerc, by his wife Agnes. He assumed the name of le Roter, also the name de Thornton from his place of residence, and sometimes by both. He is termed "godson of Randle, Earl of Chester," in a the confirmation of the grant of Thorton to his father, Peter, given by Sir John de Arderne, and also in a grant of the vill of Onston by the Earl of Chester himself.

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Also started work on Sir Randle le Roter, de Thornton who married Amicia ‘Avice’ le Roter & is missing most of his children & in laws. Maybe they’re elsewhere on Geni.

Once again, conflation between the many Davids in this extended family. David "le clerk" ap William ap Richard, c.1185, fathered only daughters and the name of his wife is not known. He is NOT the same man as the c.1150 David ap William ap David.

Wolcott is silent on Peter le Clerk, but why the c.1150 David ap William would have a son named "le Clerk" is beyond me.

“le Clerc” was a title. I don’t think there’s a record for Peter surname, and I don’t see a property affiliation, actually. The linking to Sir David "le Belward" ap William ap Dafydd, Knight, de Malpas & Catherine verch Owain seems mostly from charter XXXIII in the collection of an author of “Booth’s Pedigrees,”. And lots of luck tracking that down.

I disliked Wikitree raising a mostly chronological argument for a Ormerod pedigree. But if Woocott has nothing on him, then I’m OK with detaching.

Now Peter shows up as son of the earlier Dan David "le Clerk" de Malpas, Justice of Chester & his wife Margaret verch Einion!

And extra Beatrix’s nearby.

Beatrix de Montalt

(Sigh)

The earlier Dan David "le Clerk" de Malpas, Justice of Chester has lost his parentage?

I don't believe these several extant source tidbits mixed with puzzle-piecing guesstimations can be conjoined with pragmatic certitude.

Deciding whether to maintain all relationships as they are or to detach and Isolate person-profiles are tough calls to make. In this line, "more research" seems fruitless. The off-chance that undiscovered ancient Cheshire documents will be found, deciphered, and transcribed is exceedingly low.

Private User

A few years ago I spent a week on these lines. I really do not want to undo that work. That’s part of why I keep tagging Steve Ferry. I know I’m not objective.

Understandable.

Erica Howton "le clerk" was indeed a title, delineating a function, but was often subsequently passed down as a family name.

From what I can see here, and in other sites, including Stirnet, this whole family is a big mashup, and it reminds me of what Darrell Wolcott told me: students of Welsh genealogy should avoid the English lines as much as possible, and vice versa.

:)

But these le Clerc’s are Cheshire at this point? Ormerod the antiquarian “authority”?

If Wikitree’s analysis is on point, and this Peter was a contemporary of the younger David, then the elder Dan David "le Clerk" de Malpas, Justice of Chester ought to be mentioned, I guess.

I have no idea where that last Sir David "le Clerc" comes from. See Anne's curator note.

From secondary sources interpreting Visitations in various ways.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Malpas-29#Did_David_le_Clerk_marry_Ma...

Did David le Clerk marry Margred ferch Rafe?

Collins states that David de Malpas, called also Le Clerc, from being Secretary to the Earl of Chester, married Margaret, daughter and heir of Ralph ap Eynion, by Beatrix, daughter of Ranulph, the second of that name, Earl of Chester. [8]

NO. Dan Dafydd "le clerk" (1185) ap William ap Richard did not. Per Wolcott his wife is unknown, and he fathered only daughters. He was a base son and would not be titled Baron of Malpas.

The man who married Margred ferch Ralph ap Sir William (Miles) "le Belward" was David (1090) ap William ap Sir William (Miles) "le Belward" [yes, they were cousins], and that David could have been styed Baron of Malpas. His brother was the great grandfather of the c.1185 Dan Dafydd "le Clerk", and Dan David is the only family member cited by Wolcott as being called "le Clerk."

This is where the lines are generally conflated. Only be following a workable chronology, as Wolcott does, can you properly sort them out.

That’s why I didn’t want to change from what Wollcott has. Thanks, l’ll try to restore to it.

I merged away the extra David into Dan David "le Clerk" de Malpas, Justice of Chester