Beatrix de Montalt (de Mohaut) - Disputed Hyperlinked Father

Steven Mitchell Ferry - your opinion?

There are big IFs as to the children of Robert de Mahaut as duly noted in his profile Overview: Robert de Mahaut / de Mohaut, of Montalt or Mold . There is no primary source for the parentage of Beatrix—only supposition.

Ranulf de Gernon, 4th Earl of Chester does not have sources for a daughter Beatrix of Chester

RANULF "de Gernon" (Château de Gernon, Normandy before 1100-[murdered] 16 Dec 1153, bur Chester, Abbey of St Werburgh) Earl of Chester, Vicomte d'Avranches.
s/o RANULF Vicomte du Bessin "le Meschin" & Lucy
x c1141 MATILDA of Gloucester, d/o ROBERT FitzRoy Earl of Gloucester & Mabel [Matilda or Sibylle] FitzRobert (-29 Jul 1190)

• HUGH "of Kevelioc" (Kevelioc, co. Monmouth 1147-Leek, Staffordshire 30 Jun 1181, bur Chester, Abbey of St Werburgh) Earl of Chester, Vicomte d'Avranches
• RICHARD (-[1170/75], bur Coventry)

xx NN mistress

• ?ROBERT FitzCount (-< 1166)

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#...

Erica Howton I think Wolcott is forthcoming in presenting his findings as not being based on any primary sources, but on an analysis of available "pedigrees," along with an historical and geographical context. He also develops a timeline based on the associated Welsh genealogies, which I think is the only comprehensive chronology presented.

So, I don't think we can say with authority that Beatrix was the daughter of the Robert that we have here. I see nothing to suggest that this Robert was the seneschal for an Earl of Chester. Has anyone else found something along this line that I am missing?

I was just looking over our epic “ Tanglust illegitimate daughter of Hugh (d'Avranches) - Birth Dates” discussion from 22 August 2015. Beatrix de Mohaut is only touched on, here:

https://www.geni.com/discussions/149243?msg=1061548

From Wollcott:

http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000038925002885&amp

The first William in the chart was born c. 1180 and did marry Beatrix, daughter of Robert de Montalt.

http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000038947243787&amp

But was that the same man we have listed in Geni as her father? The only reference for him that I see is that he was seneschal to the Earl of Chester, and it doesn't specify which Earl.

I just walked through the geni Montalt tree linking them as reported by Wolcott, and it matches.

Top of the “About” for Beatrix de Montalt

Biography

Last updated 18 April 2025

Genealogist Darrell Wolcott in The "Malpas" Family in Cheshire notes that "the first [[Sir William de Malpas Sir William de Malpas] William] in the chart was born c. 1180 and did marry [sic: did not marry] [[Beatrix de Montalt Beatrix de Montalt]?through=6000000038924186228 Beatrix], daughter of [[Robert de Mahaut / de Mohaut, of Montalt or Mold Robert de Mahaut / de Mohaut, of Montalt or Mold] Robert de Montalt]. This Robert de Montalt was descended from the family of seneschals who served the Earls of Chester, being born c. 1160 and the son of the elder [[Robert FitzRalph de Mohaut / de Montalt Robert FitzRalph de Mohaut / de Montalt] Robert de Montalt], the latter being a son of [[Ralph de Monte Alto / FitzNorman, 4th Baron of Chester Ralph de Monte Alto / FitzNorman, 4th Baron of Chester] Ralph fitz Norman].”

And from the Ancestor report:

• 1. Beatrix (de Mohaut) de Montalt b. circa 1182, Chester, Cheshire , England; d. after 1245, Malpas, Cheshire , England
  • 2. Robert de Mahaut / de Mohaut, of Montalt or Mold b. circa 1162, Hawarden Castle, Flintshire, Wales; d. circa 1232
    • 3. Robert FitzRalph de Mohaut / de Montalt b. circa 1125, Castle Montalt, Hawarden, Flintshire, Wales; d. circa 1162, Castle Montalt, Hawarden, Flintshire, Wales
      • 4. Ralph de Monte Alto / FitzNorman, 4th Baron of Chester b. circa 1050, Chester, (now Cheshire), England

From https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Montalt-3

So in summary:

• He was probably an adult by 1187, and certainly by 1198, possibly starting his young adult life as a soldier while his elder brother Ralph held their father's inheritance. His brother made a grant without him about 1180, at which time Robert was perhaps not yet an adult. So Robert was born about 1165.
• His brother Ralph, to whom he was heir, died about 1200-1207.
• Robert himself died in the period 1208-1212, so was probably dapifer for only a few years.
• The connection between this generation, Ralph and Robert II, and the next, Roger, is not certain. Complete Peerage thinks it likely he was Robert's son, but he could for example be a nephew or perhaps even their younger brother (as proposed by Ormerod)? That they did have a younger brother named Roger is not doubted because he was mentioned in a charter.

Family

Robert possibly had no wife, and possibly had no issue.

• A possible son is Roger, who took over his offices and lands.
• A possible daughter is Beatrix, concubine of David de Malpas.

Re: A possible daughter is Beatrix, concubine of David de Malpas.

That looks like it’s a typo and should be William de Malpas, mother of David de Malpas.

Is the concern over Robert’s office, or that there’s a bit of uncertainty based on a couple of Visitations? Wolcott’s reconstruction makes good sense to me.

There is a primary source for (hopefully this Robert):

https://archive.org/details/chartularyorregi02ches/page/309/mode/1u...

541. Confirmation by Robert, lord of Mold, steward of the earl of Chester, to the abbey of the whole vill of Goostrey with all its appurtenances in pure alms for ever. 1 192-1208. [Latin text]

Comment on Page 310:

The limits of date are fixed by the appearance of Ralph, the grantor's brother and predecessor, in a charter not earlier than 1192 (Morris, Chester, 482-3), and by the fact that Mainwaring's justiciarship was before October 1208.

The charter for Goostrey is shown a generation earlier at http://gibbins.gen.nz/gibbins/24.htm.

They show a son & heir Roger de Mohaut (d. 1232)

http://gibbins.gen.nz/gibbins/113.htm

Presumed to be the son of Robert [The record made by Bracton (Note Book no.1558) is confused. The name 'Robert' is written, but amended to 'Ralph'.

Misc: He attested a charter as "Roger dapifer de Montalt.", Cir 1211. 5