Ralph (Rodolphe) de Torta - Origins of Raoul Tourte

And why he shows as my 30th great grandfather:

HISTORY… THE INTERESTING BITS! The Origins of the Warenne Family.” (22/05/2021) Sharon Bennett Connolly < link >

In 1782 Rev John Watson wrote a two-volume biography of the Warenne earls of Surrey for Sir George Warren, to demonstrate the knight’s descent from the Warenne earls. Watson tried to establish the origins of the Warennes, but his family trees are confusing, and his sources are not cited. He claimed that the Warennes were descended from Herfastus through a daughter who married Walter de Saint Martin. This daughter supposedly gave birth to William de Warenne, Earl of Varenne in Normandy, who in turn married a daughter of Rafe de Torta, a Danish nobleman who was protector of Normandy in the time of Duke Richard I. This William de Warenne was, supposedly, the father of William I de Warenne. Although there are no sources mentioned, it seems likely that Rev Watson got his information from the chronicler Robert de Torigny. There was no mention of Rodulf, who is clearly identified in the cartulary of the Holy Trinity of Rouen as being the father of William de Warenne and his older brother: ‘ filii eorum Rodulfus et Willelmus’.

https://warrenfamilyhistory.com/Docs/Our%20Warrens%20in%20England.htm

The Rev. John Watson, M.A., F.S.A., in his great work on the Warren family, gives the following account of the origin of this ancient noble house. … Herfastus, brother of Gunnora, had a daughter married to Walter de St. Martin, by whom he had William de Warenne, Earl of Warren in Normandy, who married a daughter of Ralph de Torta, a noble Dane, protector of Normandy during the minority of Richard I. By her he had Ralph (Rodolphus), Sir de Garenne, who married first Beatrice and secondly Emma. …

Mr. Eyton gives a somewhat different pedigree compiled by Mr. Stapleton in his Antiquities of Shropshire. According to this, a niece of Gunnora, wife of Richard I., Duke of Normandy, married Hugh, Bishop of Coutances, in 990; living in 1020, by whom he had Redolphus de Warren, who was the father of William de Warren, first Earl of Warren and Surrey. Rodolphus had a brother, Roger de Mortimer, ancestor of the Earls of March, and another brother, Godfrey de Warren, from whom the Pierpoints descend.

We find Eyton a far more reliable genealogist than most of his era. However:

Now there are two statements here to which we must take exception. First Rodolphus (Ralph or Raoul) de Warren was not a son of Hugh the Bishop, and second he was not brother of Roger de Mortimer. Our authority is the Charters of the Abbey of Holy Trinity, Rouen, which are to be found in the departmental archives of Seine Inferieure.

I am thinking Herfastus "The Knight" (Herfastus, a knight) is a mixup with Herbastus de Crépon (hypothetical person) and Gautier, Bishop of Paris should be changed to son of Radulphus Torta.

Thoughts?

Palgrave, Sir Francis. The History of Normandy and of England, Volume II: The three first dukes of Normandy: Rollo, Guillaume-Longue-Epée, and Richard-Sans-Peur. Richard Le-Bon. Richard III. Robert Le-Diable. William the Conqueror. (1857)

Note: Francis Palgrave was the English historian, solicitor, antiquarian and archivist considered the founder of the Public Record Office.

Page 509. < GoogleBooks >

(945-946) … he fled from Normandy, and, taking refuge at Paris, placed himself under the protection of his father the Bishop, nor did he ever return to plague the Normans again.

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Search inside > < GoogleBooks >

Page 312. < GoogleBooks >

The ungain character of Raoul Torta (afterwards the unpopular minister of the young Duke) has been clearly chronicled, but we do not know much concerning his personal history. Possibly he may have been connected with Hugh-le-Grand, inasmuch as his son Gautier, Bishop of Paris, had previously been one of the Duke-abbot's flocka Monk in his Monastery of Saint Denis. Raoul Torta was opulent and influential, enjoying large possessions, and supported by numerous friends and retainers in the vicinity of Rouen.

But though 936-943 the before-mentioned nobles enjoyed the highest political station, yet the head of the Baronagefor we may now fairly begin to employ this termwas Yvo, the "Veteranus," or the "Fortis Marchio," or the "Formargis," or the "Normannus Normannorum," the founder of five great families, Belesme, Ponthieu, Perche, Alençon, and, through the female line, Montgomery.

Where do these dates, locations, wife & children come from?

Ralph (Rodolphe) de Torta MP
Latin: Radulphus Torta
Gender: Male
Birth: circa 935
Saint-Lô, Manche, Lower Normandy, France
Death: 1010 (70-80)
Dammartin-en-Goële, Seine-et-Marne, Île-de-France, France

Husband of Wevia (Herfastus) De Torta
Father of Beatrice de Torta and Emma de Torta, comtesse de Varenne

(I think we identified the daughters as part of the Warren legendary origins)

Emma de Torta, comtesse de Varenne

https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p71.htm#i9359

N. N. de Torta was born circa 970. She married Guillaume de Varennes, son of Gautier de St. Martin, before 998. Also called Walter. Gautier de St. Martin was born circa 925 at Normandy, France.

Family

1. Guillaume de Varennes b. circa 950

Child

1. Ranulph I de Varennes+ b. c 998, d. a 1074. Ranulph I de Varennes married Beatrice of Rouen, daughter of Tesselin of Rouen and N. N. de Crepon, before 1036

Citations

• [S204] Roderick W. Stuart, Royalty for Commoners: The Complete Lineage of John of Gaunt, Son of Edward III, Kings of England, and Queen Philippa (.: ., 3rd Ed., 1998). Hereinafter cited as RfC.
• [S204] Roderick W. Stuart, RfC, 135-33.

A relevant discussion to the Warennes at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_of_Mortemer

So far the dates of (935-1010) for Raoul Tourte seem like nonsense. Do we agree they should be removed?

*fell  from power in 946

• son Gauthier/Walter, Bishop of Paris (term of office 937–941) (so born say 900?)
• so born say 880?

I think the geni profile derived from this (or similar).

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~dearbornboutwell/fam2912.html

Somehow Torta became Tourude?

Whatever.

There’s a 4th edition of RfC.

Stuart, Roderick W. 2002. Royalty for Commoners : The Complete Known Lineage of John of Gaunt, Son of Edward Iii, King of England, and Queen Philippa (version 4th ed). 4th ed. Baltimore: Genealogical Pub.

And a second edition at libraries.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=inu.30000051185993&q1=Varenn...

Here’s the (close to) primary source for Raoul:

Viking Normandy: Dudo of St. Quentin's Gesta Normannorum. An English Translation Editor: Felice Lifshitz. < link >

[43] Richard flourishes and allies with Hugh the Great, while Arnulf and Louis enlist king Otto of the Saxons to their cause [Folios 64r - 68r = File(s) 43(L)-< Challenge >

I think I tracked down this crazy stuff.

https://sites.rootsweb.com/~dearbornboutwell/fam2912.html

Husband: Tourude + of HARCOURT (940-1040)
Wife: Wevia + of CREPON (942- )
Children: Humphrey + of VIEILLES (980-1044)
Emma + Torta of HARCOURT (1020-1059)
Marriage 0979 France

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_the_Dane

Bernard in genealogy

Despite Dudo suggesting nothing more than Bernard the Dane having an unnamed "beautiful wife", this hasn't stopped genealogists from creating a family for him. Notably, Gilles-André de La Roque[16] in his 1633 work on the genealogy of the Harcourt family,[17] ascribes a family to Bernard that is not found elsewhere. He asserts that Torf the Rich was Bernard's son, thus implying that Bernard was the earliest known forebear of the houses of Beaumont and Harcourt. This has since been replicated very widely and is evident in countless online genealogies and family histories today. La Roque's 'sources' for Bernard the Dane are limited to discussions with fellow genealogists and recent manuscripts, which do not provide a source for the family he attaches to Bernard the Dane.[note 6]

17. Gilles-André de La Roque - Histoire généalogique de la maison de Harcourt https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k118111n/f4.item.texteImage