Orm Fitz Gamel - Did Orm fitz Gamel have a son, Gamelo fitz Orm?

Were Ormus ‘le Gulden’ & Robert FitzOrm of Darleston and Biddulph the sons of Gamelo FitzOrm, De Mercie & Gamelo FitzOrm, De Mercie?

Anne Brannen and anyone else, please see.

Tagging Gary Allen Singleton & Neil Lindsay Youren

Cross post from https://www.geni.com/discussions/158450?msg=1695225

That discussion is Medieval Dups - do not merge

Orm FitzGamelo Is a duplicate tree based on https://gw.geneanet.org/foullon?lang=en&pz=alessio+alain+heribert+d..., which has no sources attached.

Here you go. they both existed.

https://books.google.com/books?id=igshAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA267&dq=orm+fitz...

Excellent.

But is there any reason to think Gamelo FitzOrm, De Mercie was the father of

Ormus ‘le Gulden’

https://books.google.com/books?id=rKNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA159#v=onepage&q...

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Gulden-12 Shows him as son https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Forestaius-1 & a woman who looks like a daughter of Bardulf Bishop of Whitern

Stirnet describes this line:

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/bb4fz/biddulph01.php

• Ricardus Forestarius = Richard the Forester (a 1086, a Norman) m. a Saxon heiress
  • 1. Ormus 'le Gudion' (the standard bearer) of Darlaveston, Buckinghall, Biddulph, etc (a 1086) m. _ Beauchamp (dau of Nicholas (sb Walter??) de Beauchamp by Emmeline, dau of Urso de Abitot)
    • A. Robert FitzOrm de Darleston and Biddulph
      • i. Ralph de Darleston (dsp)
      • ii. Alice de Darleston m. Ingenulfus de Eresley
    • B. Edward of Middle Biddulph ancestor of the Biddulph family below ...
    • C. Thomas of Over Biddulph and Normanscote ancestor of families called Overton
    • D. Alured of Knipersly ancestor of families called Knipersly or Knippersley
    • E. Ralph FitzOrm in Staffordshire m. Lettice de Montgomery (dau of William (or Robert) Montgomery of Cubley)
      • i. Emma Y m. Adam of Alditheley (d before 1211)

Main source: (1) For upper section : Commoners (vol iii, Biddulph of Biddulph)

And it’s different from Sir Richardus Forester, Knt. whose only certain child was Sir Hugo Forester (Forestarious), Gov of Etherstons

There was more than one Richard the Forester.

See page 7 of http://www.irving-fam.com/tng/histories/Foster%20History%20ver9.pdf

For the line of Hugo,:

http://www.irving-fam.com/tng/histories/Foster%20History%20ver9.pdf page 11

Hugo died about 1121 but had two sons by an unnamed wife (these ladies get no respect!)4. The sons were named Hugo and Reginald. Both were knighted by King Stephen (reigned 1135 – 1141). Reginald was at the Battle of Standard (1138) for which he was knighted and was made governor of Etherstone.

3 Governor implies an appointment from the King, or other highly placed nobleman. The owner of the land appoints a governor to be a tenant-in-chief to act for the owner of the land.
4 In many pedigree documents of early times the wife is named only if she was well connected (e.g. the daughter of a nobleman). So when no information is recorded about the wife she is probably a local maiden.

(i know the source I’m reading is a hobbyist work, but it’s already made it clearer to me w corrections that are needed ….)