Tangwystl of Chester - Tangwystl of Chester

Steven Mitchell Ferry

Anne Brannen

We have pushback on Tangwystl. :(

The gist of th3 argument at https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Avranches-53 seems to be:

• no evidence Hugh "Lupus" d'Avranches, 1st Earl of Chester has a Welsh mistress, Welsh-named daughter, or (I think) Sir William "le Belward" ap William, II, Lord of Malpas as a son in law
• a plausible explanation for her name from a discussion by Peter Cosgrove (7)

Was Tangwystl the same person as "Tanglust" who was said to have married William le Belward?"

Peter Cotgreave's study outlines a possible chain of events by which Tangwystl became Tanglust. [11]

"In about 1200, Pope Innocent III mistakenly believed that the Welsh prince Llywelyn had previously been married to a sister of Ranulf II, earl of Chester. The only woman he coul dhave meant -- the mother of Llywelyn's children, sometimes called his wife -- was called Tangwystl. The coincidence of an unuaual name with the suggestion that she was a sister of Earl ranulf storngly point to this being the woman whom Whitgrave believed had married his ancestor. In fact, she was not the earl's sister and her association with the Belwards was probably caused by confusion about a later marriage; the genuine Tangwystl's grandson really did marry one of Belward's descendants and heirs in the barony" of Malpas. [11]

7. Peter Cotgreave. The Barony of Malpas in the twelfth century. Transactions, Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, 2008, 157.2. pp. 15-16. Accessed 28 November 2020. https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/157-2-Cotgreave.pdf

11. Peter Cotgreave. The barony of Malpas in the twelfth century. Transactions, Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, 2008, 157.2. page 15-16. https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/157-2-Cotgreave.pdf

Cosgrove is not a source we had previously consulted, I don’t think. The other citations we had seen.

Reading the article shortly.

The author seems to be a Cheshire specialist.

Heroes and Villains ofChester and Beyond Paperback – November 13, 2019
https://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Villains-Chester-beyond/dp/1910837245...

Cotgreave disputes Ormerod. Including Robert FitzHugh, Baron of Malpas & his daughters, Letitia de Malpas & Mabillia FitzRobert of Malpas

Peter Cotgreave. The barony of Malpas in the twelfth century. Transactions, Historic Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, 2008, 157.2. page 5 https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/157-2-Cotgreave.pdf.

”No early records exist (either originals or later copies) purporting to name any offspring of Robert fitzHugh, legitimate or otherwise. However, Ormerod’s account, considered definitive by most later sources, began by stating that ‘It is agreed by all parties that Robert fitzHugh died without male issue, and by the best authorities that he had two daughters’, namely Letitia and Mabella, citing ‘MSS. Samson Erdeswick in Coll. Arm’. According to Ormerod, these women married into the Patric and Belward families, later owners o f the two moieties o f Malpas. Neither o f the statements made by Ormerod was accurate, his scheme contradicts earlier evidence and the reference he gave was wrong.”

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#_... Has no family for Robert, son of Hugh "Lupus" d'Avranches, 1st Earl of Chester

Earl Hugh had three illegitimate children by unknown mistresses:

3. ROBERT (-after 1102). He was recorded as the son of Hugh Earl of Chester by Orderic Vitalis, who specifies that he was a monk at the abbey of Saint-Evroul , Normandy[50]. He was appointed Abbot of Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk in 1100 by Henry I King of England, but deposed in 1102 by Anselm Archbishop of Canterbury at the Council of London[51].

The other Tangwystl:

Source: https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/157-2-Cotgreave.pdf Page 16

Pedigree

Rhodri ap Gruffudd = Beatrice de Malpas

Rhodri was the son of Gruffydd ap Llywelyn Fawr d 1244 = Senena verch Caradog

Grufyff was the son of Llewelyn "The Great" ap Iorwerth, King of Gwynedd, Prince of Wales = Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch

Beatrix was the daughter of David de Malpas = (chart has Constance, Geni has Alice de Beville)

On Geni, Constance verch Owain Cyfeiliog, of Powys =
Sir David de Malpas do not show with a daughter Beatrice.

However, it is seen in Wolcott:

http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id152.html

Yet another citation [11] has David ap Ralph ap Einion, the brother of Beannan in Chart 2, marrying Constance, daughter of Owain Cyfeiliog of Powys. This link to a well-known Welsh king confirms the timeline of the Malpas family: (chart 3)

“Most of our research into this family was done to identify the widowed Beatrix who married Rhodri ap Gruffudd, youngest brother of Llewelyn ap Gruffudd, the latter being Prince of Wales until 1282. Refer to our paper "Thomas ap Rhodri - Father of Owain Lawgoch" at the link here: http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id153.html (The Rhodri who married Beatrix was NOT the same Rhodri who fathered Thomas, but Welsh academia continues to claim he was.)”

From http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id153.html

“It isn't known exactly when, but after 1272, Rhodri married Beatrice, daughter of John de Malpas of Cheshire[5]. This lady was born c. 1245 and had a daughter, Isabella, from a previous marriage. Beatrice owned several manors and other tracts of land in Cheshire[6], and there is nothing to indicate that she and Rhodri acquired other lands during their marriage nor had any children.”