Sir Hugh de Payen, Knight - Early de Payns -- problems

In tracking down spurious pedigrees, it always helps me to identify the immigrant ancestor to Colonial America, as there was / is a cottage industry of cobbling together pedigrees to provide illustrious ancestors. Some of these are known published frauds, so worth a look / see.

And look - from the descendant report:

William Paine, of Lavenham father of colonists

Elizabeth Hammond m. William Hammond, of Watertown

Phebe Page m. John Page, of Watertown

Thomas Paine

William Paine, of Ipswich m. Anna Paine

There might be a section in the middle to be detached on either end.

Thomas Payne, of Boxted Is the earlier proven (and provable) ancestor of the New England colonists referenced above. I have detached him as son of Richard Payne & NN Payne

“Richard Payne is Sir Hugh de Payen, Knight's 8th great grandson.”
https://www.geni.com/path/Sir-Hugh-de-Payen-Knight+is+related+to+Richard-Payne?from=6000000019338433274&path_type=blood&to=6000000008746581141

I’m ready for the next Colonial!

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Payne-289 Identifies the earliest known as

John Payne - Born about 1420 in Frittenden, Kent, England

Father of Stephen Payne

A suggested resource is John Payne. The descendants of John Payn : from England to America by Payne, Clyde William, (1929)
See Link: https://archive.org/details/descendantsofjoh00payn/page/n35/mode/2up

Which I have borrowed from the internet archive.

Another is Clara May (Paine) Ohler, Ancestors and descendants of David Paine and Abigail Shepard of Ludlow, Mass., 1463-1913. Lima, Ohio 1913. An Archive.org book CMPOhler p. 11. https://archive.org/details/ancestorsdescend00ohle

Both genealogies lift this text:

The first of these is "Pagen of Domesday" 1041-1086, and the second is Hugh de Payen, a crusader and founder of the Order of Knights Templar. For the following extract we are indebted to the "Paine Genealogy" by Mr. Albert W. Paine, of Bangor, Maine. …

But those men are real (even if they aren’t really the colonists ancestors). And neither book goes back further than John of Frittenden as an ancestor of:

Many surmises have been made as to the EngHsh ancestry of Moses Paine of Braintree, Massachusetts, but it was not until 1912 that the discovery of his ancestry and place of emigration was found by Miss Elizabeth French, a genealogist connected with the New England Genealogical and Historical Society. Thanks to her efforts, we have the line established back to "John Payn of Fyrythenden," whose will is dated April 12, 1463.

Moses Paine, of Braintree - currently showing as Sir Hugh de Payen, Knight's 12th great grandson.

Linda Kathleen Thompson, (c) - jump in anytime. :)

Michelle Angelique Stein - I’m tending to agree with your comments.

Private User - when I’ve found spurious pedigrees before for Colonials, I’ve tended to snip, isolate & mark fictional, add to the spurious pedigrees project, but “not” have them deleted from geni. I certainly won’t remember in the future whether they’re valid or not, and without the wrong tree to reference, it’s research all over again.

My line of Paynes are researched in "The Paynes of Virginia". It isn't proven where they connect to in England. However, they used to get tangled in with a couple of them. Moses Paine, of Braintree mostly. Moses Paine has a Will but I really don't know any further back than that. I have my direct Payne ancestor, John Payne locked down pretty tight in order to stop it from easily being attached again. Many years ago Sir Hugh de Payen, {Fictional} was another that I had to detach my line from.

Has anyone heard of

John Payne II, Chamberlain to the Bishop of St. David's Cathedral (1420-1463)?

I’ve disconnected John Payne as son of John Payne & Lady Agnes Middleton

And that broke the connection to Sir Hugh de Payen, Knight's.

I’m not yet sure if the assent line from John Payne is entirely fictional or just not related.

What’s at Wikitree might be a different line.

Disproven Line of Descent

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Payne-289

Because no documentation has been found for any of the following ancestors of John Payn , they have been marked as disproven and de-linked from parents, spouses, and children.

1. Thomas I Paine, born 1145, alleged son of Hugh de Paven, supposedly the founder of the knights Templar, and Catherine St Clair. Birth place shown as Market Bosworth, Leicestershire.
2. Thomas Paine II, born 1170. Birth place shown as Market Bosworth, Leicestershire.
3. Thomas Paine III, born 1200. Birth place shown as Market Bosworth, Leicestershire.
4. Thomas Payne IV, born 1245. Birth place shown as Market Bosworth, Leicestershire.
5. Thomas Payne V, born 1285. Birth place shown as Market Bosworth, Leicestershire.
6. Thomas Payne VI, born 1327. Birth place shown as Somerset.
7. William Payne, born 1347, Birthplace shown as Yorkshire.
8. John Payne, born Norwich, Norfolk, 1385

In addition to the lack of any other documentation, the variance of birthplace without explanation from generation to generation is a source of suspicion. In addition, while there was a family of Paynes in Market Bosworth as shown in the Visitations, those shown here preceded by Visitation records by one or more centuries.

Erica Howton — here you go — https://books.google.com/books?id=_fs1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA860&dq=john+payne+chamberlain+at+st+david%27s&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwil14ebjJ3_AhXiIH0KHcy1D8cQ6AF6BAgLEAM#v=onepage&q=john%20payne%20chamberlain%20at%20st%20david's&f=false

Thanks. At least the geography isn’t insane.

I’ve started marking the fictional tree. This is the top:

Thibault de Payen, {Fictional}

Need to find the bottom, and then isolate.