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Jean, de Flandre - Alt data

Started by Sharon Doubell on Wednesday, May 3, 2023
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Death Date 14 October 1292 14 April 1292

Hello dear Ma`am Sharon Doubell, I am sorry, but according to my source from CURRENT en.wikipedia.org:

Jean de Flandre, of course in translation, shown with Name John of Flanders, WITH TRUE SUITABLE CONTENT:

"John of Flanders (c. 1250 – 14 October 1292[1]), also known as John of Dampierre, was the third son of the Count of Flanders and Namur Guy of Dampierre from his first marriage with Matilda of Béthune, and brother of Robert of Béthune. He is not to be confused with his half brother John I, Marquis of Namur." "Having studied law at Paris,[1] John of Flanders was Bishop of Metz in 1280–1282, then Prince-bishop of Liège in 1282–1291. He died at Anhaive Castle in Jambes and is buried at Flines Abbey near Douai.", quoted from en.wikipedia.org, John of Flanders.

Best Regards with all my respect

Ulrich (called Uli) Peter Hamberger
Dr. h.c. RV/U.S.A. of Business
Diplom-Kaufmann Univ./MBA from FAU WiSo Erlangen-Nuremberg

Hello dear Ma`am Curator Sharon Doubell,

CAN YOU AGREE TO OCT 14th 1291 Date de mort 14 / 10 / 1291 FROM www.idref.fr., the Official ID web-site from France? Please check the sources that I placed long time ago, it`s in.
I did upload it as a PDF about it.

Best regards with all my respect

Ulrich (called Uli) Peter Hamberger
Dr. h.c. RV/U.S.A. of Business
MBA/Diplom-Kaufmann Univ. from FAU WiSo Erlangen-Nuremberg

Hello dear Ma`am Curator Sharon Doubell,

CAN YOU PLEASE SEE ALL THE SOURCES TOO THAT I PLACED? AND WHAT CITED?
OK for Jean de Flandre and his daughter married later as Cunigunda von Oberstein?
I am really sorry, but all sources are full of translations partly. But content logical and OK?

Of course I would agree to the date de morte in April 1292 for Jean de Flandre that you placed IF that would be the best known real correct date. I AM WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY OR AGREEMENT/ARRANGEMENT.

Best regards with all my respect

Ulrich (called Uli) Peter Hamberger
Dr. h.c. RV/U.S.A. of Business
MBA/Diplom-Kaufmann Univ. from FAU WiSo Erlangen-Nuremberg

Hello Ulrich

Thanks for getting involved - we need users who are interested in primary sources to work with us on the medieval tree.

To start with - Have a look at this and let me know what your primary sources disagee with (if they do)

JEAN de Flandre ([1250]-Anhève 14 Apr 1292, bur Flines-lez-Raches) Bishop of Metz, Bishop of Liège
s/o GUY de Dampierre & MATHILDE de Béthune

Regarding the October date - let's track down the original primary source of both and decide together which is more accurate.

In https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/FLANDERS,%20HAINAUT.htm#Marguerite... Cawley says "The Biographie Nationale de Belgique records his death 14 Apr 1292 at Anhève but does not cite the corresponding primary source".

Post the wiki link (Don't worry about translations - I can do those) - perhaps they have a better idea of where the Biographie Nationale de Belgique got its (possibly incorrect) data.

This https://www.idref.fr/ doesn't take me to info and sources about him, but perhaps you can see their source.

vs his brother: Jean de Flandre, Comte de Namur

Cunigunde I can't find sources for. It seems unlikely that a bishop would have legally recorded daughters?

I am sorry, but at that times there was NO Zoelibat / celibacy. AS YOU KNOW OF COURSE, Bishops were often married - at that times and before - they lead wars and had children.

I recommend the www.idref.fr OFFICIAL FRENCH ID Web-Site. There`s Jean de Flandre with all his nameseven as John of Flanders. AS GOOD AS I KNOW ACCORDING TO MY PLACED SOURCES: Jean de Flandre isn`t that other Comte de Namur (other Data).

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOUR Internet-Connection can do.

There`s only one thing, IN MY TREE the Profile that I merged with YOURS IS GONE. WHY THAT PLEASE? Because of our discussion? CAN YOU SEE MY SOURCES (Minimum 6) THAT I PLACED FOR Jean, de Flandre? I reply you later, OK?

Best regards with all my respect

Ulrich (called Uli) Peter Hamberger (Dr. h.c.)

I`m sorry, my computer or only God knows who made a mistake in my reply as written above. correction: "... Jean de Flandre with all his names even as John of Flanders." Not really all his names - translated or not.

What do we all really know?

See you later in our discussion. OK?

I'm not really following you, Ulrich.

1. I can see you managing on that profile - so it isn't gone at all.

2. No, he's definitely not his half brother, the Comte de Namur - I just put the link there for comparison, so we could make sure we weren't mixing them up.

3. I can see your sources, but none of them appear to be primary sources. Have a look here for the difference between primary and secondary sources: https://www.geni.com/projects/Working-with-sources/18201. You need to cite the primary sources these secondary/ tertiary sources are using.

4. Add John of Flanders to the aka.

Later is good :-) Very interesting to research this.

Hello. I am sorry but what`the aka, please?

MESSAGE: Please see especially my 2 sources about Andreas from / von Oberstein and Cunigunda from / von Oberstein. From Bad Kreuznach, Disibodenberg, Kreuzgang:
2 STONE GRAVE PLATES and what`s written with it.

They wrote too about the Counts / Grafen von / from Metz. That in 2 sources. To be very precise:

In my FIRST PLACED SOURCE Deutsche Inschriften Online_ANDREAS-VON-OBERSTEIN.pdf, on page 2 Kunigunde von / from Metz Wappen / Coat of Arms. And on page 3 under Anmerkungen: 1. (fuer die Seite 2) ... handelt es sich um eine nach und nach abgesunkene Nebenlinie der Grafen von Metz; vgl. Möller, Stammtafeln NF I 10ff.

Exact TRANSLATION: Notes: 1. (for the page 2) ... it is a branch of the Counts of Metz that gradually declined; cf. Möller, Family Trees (or Stem Lists) NF I 10ff.
AND under Anmerkungen 2 / Notes 2: Vgl. Möller, Stammtafeln AF III Taf. (means Tafel) CXXII, and NF I Taf. (means Tafel) X. (Taf. can only stand for Tafel, and meant can only be picture in stem list, as far as I am asked about it).

AND in my SECOND PLACED SOURCE Deutsche Inschriften Online_Inschrift_Kunigunde_von-Oberstein_geb.-von-Metz_TOD-um-1360.pdf:

On page 2 of that source, CONTENT: Supposed to be engraved in stone CUNIGUNDA, and coats of arms 1 with a Lion (for from Oberstein) and 1 from Metz.

And under Anmerkungen / Notes on page 3 of that source: 2. Möller, Stammtafeln AF III Taf. (Tafel) CXXII. 4. CONTENT of that point 4: The MOTHER of another von / from Oberstein (their son) … was called von / from / de Rosiere, gen. (gen. for born) de Metis (Metis means Metz according to all translations).

I am sorry, it`s what they wrote and showed in that 2 sources.

About me personal within that geni matter: My Grandfather was born 1908 in Ars sur Moselle that`s Metz. I could even anyway go for a French Passport because of that fact. But my roots can go until Wales, too. I myself was born in Frankfurt Main in 1965 when it was U.S. ARMY HQ. YES, IT`S ALL INTERESTING.

And I am sorry, but I tried to receive the MÖLLER, STAMMTAFELN / Möller, Family Trees or Stem Lists sources in written form. But for me they were not available or I could not order them until now. Can you find them in written form or shown from a web-site, please? Perhaps YOU have better possibilities?

Best regards with ALL MY RESPECT. I am waiting for your reply.

Ulrich (called Uli) Peter

Correction: "What`s the aka, please?"
BUT MY MESSAGE THAT I SENT BEFORE MATTERS, PLEASE.
And I am sorry for correction. WE ALL MUST BE CAUTIOUS IN THE
WEB AND WITH OUR COMPUTERS - AS YOU MIGHT KNOW
BETTER. I cannot tell about possible influences.
Please, shield us GOD.

Yes, of course Ma`am Sharon Doubell, YOU are right.
Yes, I worked - within my tree on some profiles, and sources that I placed - but only to show everything correct and as CLEAR or COMPLETE as I can.

I am sorry IF I didn`t express it all too clear or very direct. I am sorry, but the mentioned thing before:

I meant that in my Tree, the Parents of Jean de Flandre are no longer in or shown until now. And their ancestors neither. It`s ONLY all in for our discussed Profile of Jean, de Flandre. BUT PLEASE SEE ALL MY COMPLETE REPLY THAT I SENT TODAY, on May 6TH 2023.

PS.: See you tomorrow or in short time on geni.com.

Hello Ulrich.

I'll take a look at those sources carefully - stone graves/monuments sound very promising.

The aka is the 'also known as' field under the naming

I won't be on much during the week because I'm a high school teacher, but I'll do my best

These are the parents - they're definitely there: Guy of Dampierre, Count of Flanders & Marquis of Namur and Mathilde, dame de Béthune

Request management on them, if you want to be a manager on their profiles. I don't manage on them, so I can't invite you myself :-)

cf Agnes von Hohenfels (Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Kurpfalz) and Cunigunda von Oberstein (de Metz)

https://media.geni.com/p13/28/2a/14/e3/53444860d926891d/deutsche_inschriften_online_andreas-von-oberstein_original.pdf?hash=d3e3e77e910753d0fbe0134922a8a18c075cde2b2cc76d80f5f8959112de336c.1769414399

SOURCE: www.inschriften.net/ ...
Grab-Platte des ANDREAS VON OBERSTEIN, MIT BESCHREIBUNG der Grafen von Metz als Nebenlinie.

Translation: GERMAN INSCRIPTION ONLINE TUES 34: Bad Kreuznach (1993) No. 23 Disibodenberg, cloister between 1331 and 1334

Description
Grave slab of Andreas von Oberstein (?). Embedded in the ground in the northern part of the east wing (Plan No. 17), discovered during excavations in the summer of 1985. Large slab of yellow-grey sandstone with inscription between Lines, large coat of arms in bas-relief in the upper middle field. Heavily damaged and broken several times, lower bar is missing.

Dimensions:
H. (erc.) 230, W. 91, Bu. 7 cm.
Font(s): Gothic majuscule.

+ YEAR · D(OMI)NI M / 3331 [..... / ..... / ..... R]REST IN PEACE AMEN ]

State Office for the Preservation of Monuments in Rhineland-Palatinate (Heinz Straeter) [1/4]
Coat of arms:
Oberstein (with the lion).
comment
The few letters that have survived are deeply carved; the letter endings at M and N run into small ones
ornaments off.
The identity of the deceased can only be determined indirectly via the coat of arms (crowned rising lion) and the approximate
Determining the date of death and taking into account the neighboring grave slab. On this plate is found above
left also the lion coat of arms of the Lords of Oberstein, who lived on the upper Nahe, and opposite that of the
Lords of Metz. Only one connection is known from the genealogies of both sexes, that with all
The facts available harmonize: the marriage of Kunigunde von Metz, who was described as a widow in 1334, with the 1303 to 1329 mentioned Andreas von Oberstein. The deceased should therefore be the son of the imperial Court Chancellor Eberhard von Oberstein and his wife Hebela Marshal von Frauenstein. Andrew
temporarily held the office of electoral Mainz burgrave at Böckelheim Castle.The numerous, on the couple declining progeny flourished in the male line until the second half of the 17th century

Text-critical apparatus
a. Some unrecognizable remains of letters at the end of the bar.
b. Supplemented according to available space; at the end of the bar some remains of letters that cannot be clearly assigned.

Remarks
1. Cf. No. 45 from after 1360. They are a gradually socially degraded, early 15th century
extinct collateral line of the Counts of Metz; cf. Möller, Family Trees NF I 10ff.
2. Cf. Möller, genealogical tables AF III plate CXXII and NF I plate X.
3. See Toepfer, UB Hunolstein I 307ff.

Addenda & Corrigenda
(Status: September 16, 2014):
Andreas – “a key figure in the genealogy of the Lords of Oberstein” – is probably not that
Son of the imperial court chancellor Eberhard, actually a son from the marriage of Wilhelm von Oberstein
a Rhine Countess. Andreas donated together with his wife Kunigunde on January 17, 1337 to both of them
Soul salvation to the Disibodenberg monastery a grain and cash rent on their goods at Merxheim (friendly
Messages from Mr. Peter Stammitz, Idar-Oberstein, letter dated May 10, 2000, with reference to Möller,
Family tables NF II, supplements to AF III Taf. 122 Oberstein). Accordingly, the death dates of the couple would be to correct accordingly

The identity of the deceased can only be determined indirectly via the coat of arms (crowned rising lion) and the approximate determining the date of death and taking into account the neighboring grave slab. On this plate is found above left also the lion coat of arms of the Lords of Oberstein, who lived on the upper Nahe, and opposite that of the Lords of Metz. Only one connection is known from the genealogies of both sexes, that with all The facts available harmonize: the marriage of Kunigunde von Metz, who was described as a widow in 1334, with the 1303 to 1329 mentioned Andreas von Oberstein. The deceased should therefore be the son of the imperial Court Chancellor Eberhard von Oberstein and his wife Hebela Marshal von Frauenstein. Andrew temporarily held the office of electoral Mainz burgrave at Böckelheim Castle.The numerous, on the couple declining progeny flourished in the male line until the second half of the 17th century

Addenda & Corrigenda
(Status: September 16, 2014):
Andreas – “a key figure in the genealogy of the Lords of Oberstein” – is probably not that
Son of the imperial court chancellor Eberhard, actually a son from the marriage of Wilhelm von Oberstein a Rhine Countess. Andreas donated together with his wife Kunigunde on January 17, 1337 to both of them soul salvation to the Disibodenberg monastery a grain and cash rent on their goods at Merxheim (friendly messages from Mr. Peter Stammitz, Idar-Oberstein, letter dated May 10, 2000, with reference to Möller, Family tables NF II, supplements to AF III Taf. 122 Oberstein)

This interpretation of the stone thus relies on assumptions about Kunigunde von Metz being married to Andreas von Oberstein. It doesn't, in itself, prove their existence or their relationship.

SOURCE: www.inschriften.net/landkreis-bad-kreuznach/ ...
WITH quote "...gen. von Metz (gen. de Metis) bezeichnet ...", that means BORN as de Metz/von Metz.

GERMAN INSCRIPTIONS ONLINE
Disibodenberg, cloister shortly after 1360

Description
Tombstone of Kunigunde von Oberstein, born von Metz (?). In the northern part of the east wing in the ground embedded (Plan No. 16), found during excavations in the summer of 1985. Large slab of sand-lime brick with Inscription between lines and two small coats of arms in low relief in the upper corners. Incised drawing in the field a female figure in a long, pleated robe beneath a three-part keel arch; Hands probably in prayer posture. Heavily damaged and broken several times, writing and drawing largely unrecognizable.

Dimensions: H. 242, W. 101, Bu. 7 cm.
Font(s): Gothic majuscule.

+ ANNO · D(OMI)NI · M · CC / CLX [..........O(BIIT)] D(OMI)NA · C[UNIGUNDA / ..... / .......IN PACE · AM[EN]

Coat of arms:
Oberstein (with the lion); Metz.

The few surviving letters show varied forms: A and N with rolled-in decorative cauds on the Letter endings, E and M closed, A with broken bar.
The deceased is hers due to the coat of arms constellation and taking into account the neighboring grave slab Husband Andreas von Oberstein can probably be identified as Kunigunde, daughter of John the Younger of Metz.From 1334 to 1353 she is mentioned as a widow. Together with her eldest son Nikolaus I. von Oberstein (†1382), canon of Mainz and provost of Jechaburg and Aschaffenburg, donated it according to the still existing coat of arms keystones the Nikolaus chapel at the Mainz cathedral cloister.

Text-critical apparatus
a. supplement hypothetical.
b. According to Disibodenberg practices of the 14th century, the final formula could either be CUIUS ANIMA REQUIESCAT (WHOSE SOUL MAY REST) or VIVAT IN PACE (LIVE IN PEACE).
c. Both letters are crowded together, probably due to lack of space, and have no abbreviation sign.

Remarks
1. Cf. no. 23 (before 1334).
2. Möller, Family Trees AF III Taf. CXXII.
3. He was buried in the Nicholas Chapel, which was completed in his lifetime; his epitaph was on the Today lost tombstone of Richard III, who died in 1487 and was also buried there. from Oberstein, see DI 2 (Mainz) No. 221 and Hollmann, cathedral chapter 455f.
4. The northern and southern capstones show the same coats of arms as on the present tombstone; cf. Kdm. Mainz II 1 394. – Why Kdm. 395 the mother of Nikolaus von Oberstein as Margareta von Rosiere called von Metz designated (DI 2: ancestral coat of arms "Rosiere, gen. de Metis"), could not be determined

The few surviving letters show varied forms: A and N with rolled-in decorative cauds on the Letter endings, E and M closed, A with broken bar.
The deceased is hers due to the coat of arms constellation and taking into account the neighboring grave slab Husband Andreas von Oberstein can probably be identified as Kunigunde, daughter of John the Younger of Metz.From 1334 to 1353 she is mentioned as a widow. Together with her eldest son Nikolaus I. von Oberstein (†1382), canon of Mainz and provost of Jechaburg and Aschaffenburg, donated it according to the still existing coat of arms keystones the Nikolaus chapel at the Mainz cathedral cloister.

So, again - this seems proof only of a gravestone of a Cunigunda - not of anything else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Flanders doesn't give Bishop Jean children either :-/

Hello. I am sorry, but I had other very urgent To Do that week - in my life 2023. I am here again now.

Of course your latest replies are quite good. BUT DID YOU GO INTO THE MATTERING REMARK of the Stone Plates Source from Bad Kreuznach? QUOTE: "Remarks: 1. Cf. No. 45 from after 1360. They are a gradually socially degraded, early 15th century extinct collateral line of the Counts of Metz; cf. Möller, Family Trees NF I 10ff."

THE LINEAGE OF THE COUNTS OF METZ AT THAT TIMES, PLEASE? CAN YOU PLEASE FIND COPIES OF THAT MENTIONED Möller-SOURCE STEM-LISTS? OVER/FROM A LIBRARY? Probably it`s possible for you, dear Ma`am Sharon?

The von Oberstein were quite clear in that source (Mentioned in another Source Book "Urkundenbuch für die Geschichte des gräflichen und freiherrlichen Hauses der Voegte von Hunolstein", 1867 from Toepfer, Friedrich") A Kunigunde was mentioned as a Wife of Andreas von Oberstein. https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_iLFBAAAAcAAJ

I am sorry, but I didn`t ask as a MAIN MATTER about the von Oberstein. The MALE Persons of the von Oberstein were quite clear, weren`t they? I DID AND DO CARE TO FIND OUT ABOUT THE WIFE Cunigunda, called gen./born de Metis/Metz. I am sorry - AS FAR AS I DO KNOW - there`s only Bishop Jean de Flandre as a possible real Father for the Cunigunda de Metis/Metz, isn`t it so according to Logic?

With Logic - Logos known as word of God - and without lies:
I am sorry, but I found NO other logical possibility, neither by going through Wikipedia and Stem Lists and Encyclopedia and so on. Is there really any true logical other possibility for the mentioned Cunigunda de Metis/Metz et cetera?

Could/Can there be even mistakes in the mentioned sources from Möller Stem Lists? One thing can be mattering too, Belgium became an independent State much later around 1800, as you know of course. And we discussed times around 1200 to 1350 AD/CE. Territory was Lotharingia and Kingdom of France, wasn`t it?

Has it to do with the Principauté de Liège? Didn`t Bishop Jean de Flandre, AFTER his time in METZ, die within that Principauté de Liège in Anhève?

AND of course, as you might understand please - I MUST KEEP MY OPINION THAT I WROTE - WITH THAT SOURCES (Please see as written above about Remarks: 1. Cf. No. 45 from after 1360. They are a gradually socially degraded, early 15th century extinct collateral line of the Counts of Metz; cf. Möller, Family Trees NF I 10ff.") AS A POSSIBLE TRUE 1ST PROOF, shouldn`t I?

Best regards with all my respect

Ulrich (Uli) Peter

You wrote as shown above: "... deceased is hers due to the coat of arms constellation and taking into account the neighboring grave slab Husband Andreas von Oberstein can probably be identified as Kunigunde, daughter of John the Younger of Metz.From 1334 to 1353 she is mentioned as a widow. Together with her eldest son Nikolaus I. von Oberstein ..."

IT`S MY OPINION, TOO. And she was mentioned as the WIDOW of that mentioned Andreas von Oberstein - THAT WAS CLEAR WAY MENTIONED, wasn`t it? And Nikolaus von Oberstein appeared as her son, as mentioned. AND - THE MATTER: AS YOU WROTE TOO, "... can probably be identified as Kunigunde, daughter of John the Younger of Metz."

BUT THAT`S THE POINT, ISN`T IT? "... can probably be identified as Kunigunde, daughter of John the Younger of Metz.", as written before.

DIDN`T WE BOTH NOW FIND OUT THAT John the Younger of Metz MATCHES FOR, OR CAN BE, Bishop Jean de Flandre/Bishop John of Flanders ONLY?

I DO THANK YOU FOR TODAY!
But PLEASE SEE BOTH OF MY MESSAGES FROM TODAY, 14th MAY 2023.

Best regards with all my respect

Ulrich (Uli) Peter

Hello dear Ma`am Sharon Doubell, how are YOU?

And THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Did you have a chance to find the Möller, Stem Lists? Or copies of them from a library? PLEASE SEE BEFORE WHAT I WROTE FOR YOU BEFORE THAT CURRENT MESSAGE.

Please accept that I am sorry, but I must give up here at that point now!

Shouldn`t we leave it up to Professors of History who are in charge? Please not hesitate to give it to Professors of History if you know some of them.

I myself can only try to order the QUOTED Möller Stem Lists from a library – and that can take weeks or months for me. At the moment I do not have other mattering sources than the ones that I gave within that matter and for matter of Jean, de Flandre.

You are the Curator, Ma`am! You can take in my Ancestor Kunigunde as a daughter of Jean de Flandre can`t you?

And I can`t care for other members of the Line Dampierre unless they are my Ancestors too – I am not able to go into your invitation for that – it`s a question of honor for my person, without any position in society at the moment. Probably some of the Germans did not like me - strange new country, I was in South America when they did their Official Reunification with GDR, but I helped from November /December 1991 on, after my exams in University, with seminars as a trainer.

BUT any messages in the coming future from you will be welcome.

NICE MEETING YOU HERE IN GENI.COM.

Ich DANKE auch. JE REMERCIE AUSSI.

Thanks and best regards with my respect

Ulrich (called Uli) Peter

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