Theodo II, duke of Bavaria - Question of Theodo II of Bavaria

Started by John Love on Monday, March 27, 2023
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Good afternoon,

I was hoping someone might help me with a question on (A) Theodo (625) II, Duke of Bavaria and (B) Theodo (625) II Agolfinger, Bavaria. Both have a date of birth of 625 and a death of 716. Are these two the same person? Theodo A shows a spouse of Folchaide* (645) of Bavaria while Theodo B a spouse of Regintrude (633) of Austrasia.

Given that the profiles show different children and neither show parents. I assumed they were different but how much of a coincident is it to have two Dukes from the same area with the same date of birth and the same date of death?

Am I just over thinking this?

Thanks for your help in keeping me sane.

John Love

A follow up thought. Could this be the same person with two spouses?

Hallo,
Theodo II. verheiratet mit Folchaid ist der Sohn von Agilolf, siehe de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammliste_der_Agilolfinger und de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodo_II.. Theodo II. Agilolfinger in Geni verheirat mit Regintrud könnte Theudebert von Bayern (Theodo III.), siehe de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudebert_(Bayern) und de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammliste_der_Agilolfinger sein.
Ich hoffe, ich konnte helfen.

Viele Grüße
Claudia Kleistner

Hello,
Theodo II married to Folchaid is the son of Agilolf, see de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammliste_der_Agilolfinger and de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodo_II.. Theodo II Agilolfinger in Geni married to Regintrud could be Theudebert of Bavaria (Theodo III .), see de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theudebert_(Bayern) and de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammliste_der_Agilolfinger.
I hope I could help.

Best regards
Claudia Kleistner

Yes, I think you are correct. They are the same person. Theodo II, duke of Bavaria and Theodo II, duke of Bavaria

For the wives, it seems that there are conflicting sources. 15th-century Medieval genealogists/historians said her name was Regintrud, but the contemporary primary sources list his wife's name as Folchaid. Medlands uses the wife's name Folchaid, without mentioning Regintrud.

I merged the profiles together. I kept Folchaid as the wife in accordance with Medlands and since that is the name that is supported by primary sources, rather than historians almost 1000 years later. https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BAVARIA.htm

Thanks for the help with the two Theodo's. I did have a follow up question regarding the children. There appears to be a significant difference between the two and so I was curious about which to include going forward. Should it be just those with Folchaid as the mother and should the other just be dropped?
Thanks,
John Love

Some of the children, like Plectrude belonged to other families. Not sure how they made their way there. Probably just some accidental merges. I put them back where they belong.

Others, like Hersuinda von Bayern or Wife of Gottfrid of the Alamannians I am not sure what to do with. Do not know where they came from...

I added these notes.

From https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/gottf000.htm

Possible spouse of Gottfried: NN of Bavaria, Agilolfing. (Wife of Gottfrid of the Alamannians)

Gottfried's connection to the Agilolfinger

Members of the ducal family of Bavaria were sometimes called Agilolfinger ["De genealogia qui vocantur Hosi Drazza Fagana Hahilinga Anniona isti sunt quasi primi post Agilolfingos qui sunt de genere ducali." Lex Baiwariorum, III, I, MGH Leg. Nat. Germ. 5.1: 312-3]. As noted above, Gottfrieds probable son Liutfrid is also called an Agilolfing in a late source. It has also been pointed out that one of Gottfried's son (Theodebald) was given the same name as one of the sons of duke Theodo of Bavaria, that the name of another son (Lantfrid) had the same first element as the name of one of Theodo's son (Lantbert/Lambert), and that Gottfried's Odilo is a variant form of the name of one of Theodo's daughters (Oda) [Eckhardt (1965), 77-9]. Also, Odilo gave his son the name Tassilo, also present in the family of duke Theodo, and Tassilo named two sons Theodo and Theodebert, the latter also being the name of duke Theodo's son and successor [ibid.]. Assuming that Zöllner's theory that Odilo was a son of Gottfried is correct, all of this points to a close relationship between Gottfried's sons and the Bavarian ducal family of duke Theodo. Thus, it is probable that either Gottfried or his wife was an Agilolfing.

But which was it? This is unclear. If the Agilolfinger were an exclusively patrilineal dynasty (and this is far from certain), then the Agilolfing status of Liutfrid would imply that Gottfried was also an Agilolfing. This was the view of Erich Zöllner, who referred to the Swabian "branch" ("Zweig") of the Agilolfinger [Z%C3%B6llner (1951), 263; Zöllner (1978), 105]. To Wilhelm Störmer it appeared that the connection went back to an earlier marriage (or marriages) [St%C3%B6rmer (1972), 22].

On the other hand, Karl August Eckhardt argued that Gottfried was descended from the previous Alemannian dukes (see below), and based on the Agilolfing connections of Gottfried's sons mentioned above, proposed that Gottfried was married to a daughter of duke Theodo of Bavaria [Eckhardt (1965), 77-9]. Störmer objected that this was not probable, because Gottfried died in 709, and Theodo not until 717×8 [St%C3%B6rmer (1972), 22]. Such chronological arguments based on death dates can be misleading, but it does seem likely that Gottfried and Theodo were in approximately the same generation. Thus, if Gottfried's wife really was a member of Theodo's family, then Christian Settipani's suggestion that she was a sister of Theodo seems more likely [Settipani (1990), 9 & n. 24, 10 (table)].

Ultimately, the situation is uncertain. Although the evidence of Agilolfing connections is good, there is simply not enough evidence to decide whether these connections came through Gottfried or through his wife.

And merging into the Master Profiles for Gotfrid, duke of the Alemannians and Family is done.

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