Margaret de Burgh - Parents of Margaret

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/IRELAND.htm#KatherineBurghdied1331 Has no parents for her.

I think we should go forward with a disconnect as daughter of Sir John de Burgh, feudal Baron Lanvallei of Walkern & Cecilia de Baliol

The evidence connecting her as daughter of Arnoul de Guines, III Comte de Guines & Alix de Coucy needs more study as discussion.

The article suggesting the connection is mentioned by Peter Stewart in 2011:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/Q_-F1Nm-ewE/m/...

John Carmi Parsons, in his article 'Eleanor of
Castile and the Countess Margaret of Ulster', _The Genealogists’
Magazine_ 20 (1982) 335–340.

He pointed out the unlikelihood that Richard de Burgh's wife Margaret
was the daughter of a John de Burgh of Lanvallay - the elder of these
men died in 1248 and 'can hardly have been father-in-law of a man born
as late as 1259', while the younger did have a daughter named Margaret
but she became a nun and did not receive a share with her sisters in the
Lanvallay inheritance.

The more probable, though unproven, link to the counts of Guines is
taken from Pere Anselme, who stated that an unnamed daughter of Count
Arnoul III by Alice de Coucy married an unidentified Irish lord.

In the article this information was not traced further - it came via
_Histoire généalogique des maisons de Guines, d’Ardres, de Gand, et de
Coucy_ by André Duchesne from a 15th century genealogy of the families
of Dreux and Coucy that is now in the Bibliothèque national in Paris.

No more definite evidence has come to light as far as I know.

In 2020 Douglas Richardson reverted his previous position:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/C6iPnc7qRsQ/m/...

https://books.google.com/books?id=8wx-yCoHAIsC&pg=RA1-PA302

Briefly, the pertinent part of this account reads as follows:

"Encores ot li Cuens Arnoul de Guignes trois filles, dont l'vne fut mariée en Yllande ... "

Based on his research, Mr. Parsons made the preliminary identification of this Guines daughter as being the same person as Margaret, wife of Sir Richard de Burgh, Earl of Ulster. After giving the matter considerable thought, I've decided that Mr. Parsons is correct in his identification. …

—-

I do not see follow up, consensus (or rebuttal) from the other genealogists on the listserv. And it’s likely too soon for this to have made it into “popular” print.

So let’s see what others say.

After we cleanup the origins in profile, and more properly cite the profile, let’s tag more geni members. Debra’s links have already helped.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Guines-5 Has made the daughter of Arnoul connection, and quotes directly from the 1999 post:

2 Mar 1999 posting of John Carmi Parsons on soc.genealogy.medieval states: "The evidence for Margaret's Guines filiation was first presented in my article, "Eleanor of Castile and the Countess Margaret of Ulster," Genealogists' Magazine", 20/10 (June 1982), 335-40 (cols. 669-80).

As a daughter of Arnoul de Guines III and Alice de Coucy, Margaret was a 2nd cousin once removed of Queen Eleanor, who almost certainly had a hand in arranging the Guines-Ulster marriage. Through her Coucy descent, Margaret was also a first cousin of Alexander III of Scotland, Edward I's brother-in- law. This Scottish connection had apparently resulted, a year or so before Margaret married Richard de Burgh, in the marriage of her brother Enguerran de Guines to the Scottish heiress Christian de Lindsay, whose issue ultimately became the senior heirs of line to King David I of Scotland.

Mary Elizabeth Northrup This is a big change in the Royal tree, so let’s make sure the connection is as well described and understood as possible, because there is no primary documentation: it’s all about the kinship.

Created a profile for Margaret de Burgh (nun) There is no dispute on her identity, and that she was an unmarried nun.

Therefore, she is not the same as Margaret de Guines

Now, let’s understand & source William 'The Grey' de Burgh, I & his wife.

We have support for her name:

Dictionary of Irish Biography: https://www.dib.ie/biography/burgh-richard-de-a1132. Last revised October 2009. “He had married Margaret de Guines, a relative of Queen Eleanor, before 27 February 1281; they had four sons, three of whom predeceased Richard, and six daughters.”

A bit of a wrinkle:

Eleanor of Castile: The Shadow Queen. By Sara Cockerill. (2014) <GoogleBooks>

Private User hoping to get your feedback, you’ve been at the Earls of Ulster before. Genealogics etc have made the parent connection proposed by Richardson, although I’m not yet seeing how the Fiennes come in, so want to be careful.

Am on standby to help this weekend, if you need help here.

Sharon Doubell - Yay! I am very interested in your take on this.

Can we find the Mathilda de Fiennes of Sara Cockerill’s book snippet? Richardson mentioned the Fiennes connection also, but I didn’t go looking yet. Also, check on Cockerill’s scholarship reputation?

This backs into more information about Eleanor of Castile, and that is also important.

Also for everyone. I attached the 1303 source link, but having no luck so far getting the whole article, "Eleanor of Castile and the Countess Margaret of Ulster," Genealogists' Magazine", 20/10 (June 1982), 335-40 (cols. 669-80).