This will take a little work to sort out. So, I’m copying out much of the post referenced in order to build back better. Help adding source info /bios to the profiles would be much appreciated.
Caveat: the post is a work in progress, so if possible, checking against the final published sources would be useful also. And, I’ll try and find a good external site for the family composition.
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/ahPQ9Q93d7g/m/...
Douglas Richardson
Nov 30, 2013, 3:49:54 PM
to
Dear Johnno ~
The following discussion addresses one of the issues raised in your initial post. As far as I can tell, Alice Skipwith, the alleged first wife of Robert de Willoughby, Knt., 4th Lord Willoughby of Eresby (died 1396) is utterly fictitious. For additional information on the Willoughby and Zouche families, please see my recently published book, Royal Ancestry (5 volume set) available for purchase through Amazon or eBay. DR
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Complete Peerage 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 660-661 (sub Willoughby) has a good
account of the life of Robert de Willoughby, Knt. (died 1396), 4th
Lord Willoughby of Eresby. The author of Complete Peerage has the
following to say about Sir Robert de Willoughby's alleged three
marriages:
"He married, 1stly, in or before 1370, Alice. He married, 2ndly,
before 29 March 1372, Margery, daughter of William (la Zouche), 2nd
Lord Zouche (of Haryngworth), by Elizabeth, daughter of William (de
Ros), 2nd Lord Ros (of Helmsley). She died 18 Oct. 1391 and was
buried at Spilsby aforesaid (M.I.). [Her] will dated 11 Oct. at
Eresby, proved 7 Nov. 1391 at Stowe Park (Lincoln Reg.). He married,
3rdly, Elizabeth, de jure suo jure (according to modern doctrine)
Baroness Latimer, widow of John (de Neville), 3rd Lord Neville (of
Raby), daughter and heiress of William (de Latimer), 4th Lord Latimer,
by his wife Elizabeth. She died 5 Nov. 1395, and was probably buried
at Spilsby. [Her] will dated 18 Oct. at Eresby, directing burial at
Spilsby, proved 10 Nov. 1395 at Lincoln."
Complete Peerage assigns the first wife, Alice, as the mother of Sir
Robert's son and heir, William; his middle children, Robert, Thomas,
John, and Brian, are assigned as children of the second wife, Margery
la Zouche; and the last child, Margaret, is assigned as a child of the
third wife, Elizabeth Latimer.
This seems very straightforward. However, what evidence does Complete
Peerage provide for the first wife, Alice Skipwith? Here is what the
author says in footnote c on page 661:
"She [Alice] is said to have been a daughter of Sir William de
Skipwith, Chief Baron of the Exchequer, by Alice, daughter and heiress
of Sir William de Hiltoft, of Ingoldmells, Lincolnshire. See Nichols,
Hist. and Antiq. of co. Leicester, vol. iii, p. 369; Massingberd,
Hist. of Ormsby, pp.68-69, 92. The alleged descent of Skipwith from
Stuteville is discussed by C.T. Clay in Early Yorkshire Charters, vol.
ix, p.138."
I examined the first two sources given by the author of Complete
Peerage as evidence for Alice Skipwith's existence and marriage.
Both sources state without any documentation that Sir William de
Skipwith had a daughter, Alice, who married Robert de Willoughby, 4th
Lord Willoughby of Eresby. But did she exist?
These same two sources also indicate that Sir William de Skipwith had
a grandson, Thomas Skipwith, who married Margaret Willoughby of the
Eresby family. As best I can determine, if Alice Skipwith really was
the mother of Sir Robert de Willoughby's son and heir, William, this
would make Thomas Skipwith and Margaret Willoughby related in the 2nd
and 3rd degrees of kindred [i.e., first cousins once removed], too closely related to obtain a dispensation to marry. If the marriage of Thomas and Margaret took place (as I believe it did), it makes it extremely doubtful that Margaret was the granddaughter of Alice Skipwith.
Regarding the chronology of the Willoughby family, Complete Peerage
states that Sir Robert de Willoughby and Margery la Zouche were
married before 29 March 1372. Actually, I have elsewhere located a
document in the helpful online A2A Catalogue
(http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp) which proves that this couple
were married before 1 October 1369:
Lincolnshire Archives: Holywell, Reference: Holywell 87/53
Creation dates: 1 October 1369 ….
Is there any further evidence that Margery la Zouche was the mother of
William Willoughby? Yes, there is. I find that the 1623 Visitation
of Wiltshire states that Robert de Willoughby married Margery la
Zouche. The visitation further indicates that Margery la Zouche was
the mother of Robert's son and heir, William, and his second son, Sir
Thomas. Alice Skipwith is not mentioned at all.
"Robtus Dns Willoughbie de Eresbie ob: Anno 20: Ri:. 2 = Dau of the Lo
Zouch" [Reference: H. St. George, Wiltshire Vis. Peds. 1623 (H.S.P.
105-106) (1954): 216–218 (Willoughbie pedigree)].
Is there any heraldic evidence that Margery la Zouche is the mother of
William Willoughby? Yes, there is. Gervase Holles published a record
of the Willoughby effigies and stained glass windows in the church at
Spilsby, Lincolnshire [Reference: Gervase Holles, Lincolnshire Church
Notes (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 1) (1911): 84-90]. This is the church where
the early Lords Willoughby lie buried. Among numerous shields and
coats of arms in the church, Mr. Holles records a series of windows in
the north isle of the Spilsby church, which windows appear to
represent various marriages of the early Lords Willoughby. These
windows include one for Robert Willoughby's marriage to Margery la
Zouche, and one for Robert's son and heir, William's marriage to Lucy
le Strange. The arrangement of these windows suggests to me that
Margery la Zouche was the mother of William Willoughby, otherwise one
should find a window commemorating the supposed marriage of Robert
Willoughby to Alice Skipwith. I might note that the Skipwith arms are
no where to be found in the Spilsby church. The Latimer arms for Sir
Robert Willoughby's 3rd wife are found in this church, however.
What about onomastic evidence? Did William Willoughby name a daughter
Alice or Margery. The answer: He named a daughter, Margery. He
named no daughter, Alice.
So, then what is the source which states that Alice Skipwith was the
first wife of Sir Robert de Willoughby? Collins' Peerage of England 6
(1812): 591-619 contains an account of the early Willoughby family.
Reviewing this account, I find that the author states that Sir Robert
de Willoughby married "first, Alice, daughter of Sir William Skipwith,
by whom he had William, his son and heir." The author gives as his
source: Segar's MS. Baronage, which work I have not seen. The author
adds that Alice Skipwith was "according to my MS. [mother of] "four
other sons," viz., Robert, Thomas, John, and Bryan. The latter
statement is definitely erroneous.
The author adds: "Sir William Dugdale says, the four youngest [sons]
were "by his second wife, Elizabeth, sister and heir to John Nevill,
Lord Latimer ... His second wife, according to several MSS. was
Margaret, or Margery, daughter of William, Lord Zouch, of
Harringworth, by whom he had no issue." Again, Dugdale is in error as
to the order of Sir Robert de Willoughby's marriages, as well as which
wife was the mother of Sir Robert Willoughby's children. Confusion
abounds in these early sources!
Did Alice Skipwith exist? I have found no evidence that such a woman
existed. If she did exist, she can't have been the mother of Robert
Willoughby's son and heir, William, otherwise the later intermarriage
between the Skipwith and Willoughby families would have been
disallowed as I have noted above.
Reviewing the evidence, I find every single piece of evidence pointing
to the fact that Margery la Zouche was the mother of William
Willoughby. This is based on chronology, heraldic evidence,
onomastics, and the later Skipwith-Willoughby intermarriage. The
traditional view that Alice Skipwith was the mother of William
Willoughby appears to be erroneous.
Interested parties can find representations of the monumental brass of
Margery la Zouche, wife of Sir Robert de Willoughby, at the following
two websites:
www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Spilsby_Brass.htm
www.gothiceye.com/popup.asp?Ref=L019
