John, Constable of Chester, Baron of Halton - John de Lacy's daughter Joan of Chester who married Peter I de Brus

Started by Mary Elizabeth Northrup on Wednesday, May 4, 2022
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Hello -
So there seems to be a small hiccup between John and his daughter Joan who married Peter I de Brus. In Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry, Vol. p. 214, III, p. 464 vi, and Vol. V p. 156 he lists Joan as a daughter.
This Joan on Geni is marked as the wife of Peter I de Brus: Joan de Grammaire
She is a Joan, but not Joan of Chester de Lacy.

This is the Peter I de Brus married to the wrong Joan:
Peter I de Brus, Lord of Skelton

On that Peter's page it lists his son Peter who married Joan Unknown:
https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#AdamBrusdied1143

Our Royal Titled Noble and Commoner Ancestors (who use Richardson as a source) list Joanna de Lacy as Peter I de Brus's wife:
https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p433.htm#...

Wiki Tree lists 2 marriages for Peter I de Brus (although Joan of Chester de Lacy appears to still be alive when Peter passed)
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bruce-2207

So, most of the information shows that Peter I de Brus married Joan of Chester de Lacy and perhaps Joan de Grammarie.
Is there any way to at least ADD Joan of Chester de Lacy to Peter I de Brus as a wife to Peter and a daughter to John de Lacy and Alice FitzRoger de Clavering??
Thank you,
Mary

If someone can find the primary source being used by Douglas Richardson, Royal Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families in unknown series (n.p.: n.pub., 2013) to establish that Joan (Peter de Brus' wife) is Joanna de Lacy > then we can add her.

Right now we appear to have no primary sources naming her as Joan de Grammaire either.

I'm going to remove that relationship, pending sources - and create a Joan of unknown parents in her place.
Thank you for spotting

cf Joan de Brus

JOAN
Parents Unknown
x PETER [II] de Brus (-17 Jan 1211, bur Gysburne/Gisborough Priory) s/o Adam [II] de Brus & IVETA de Arches

  • PETER [III] de Brus (-Marseille 13 Sep 1241, bur Gysburne/Gisborough Priory).

John, Constable of Chester, Baron of Halton

JOHN (-11 Oct 1183).
s/o RICHARD FitzEustace & AUBREYE de Lisours,
x ALICE d/o ?ROGER FitzRichard & Adelisa de Vere

  • ROGER (-1211) *EUSTACHE *RICHARD *NN/NNs

We still need primary sourcesshowing that he even had a daughter, Joanna

cf http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISHNOBILITYMEDIEVAL3T-Z.htm#Ric...

Pages 214-215 in Vol I of Royal Ancestry here you go:
5. PETER DE BRUS, Knt, of Skelton, Danby, Thorp Arches, and Walton, Yorkshire, son and heir. He married JOAN OF CHESTER, daughter of John, hereditary Constable of Chester, of Halton, Cheshire, Bilhaugh and Harworth, Nottinghamshire, etc., by Alice, daughter of Roger Fitz Richard, of Warkworth, Northumberland [see LACY 1 for her ancestry]. Her maritagiurn included land and a mill at Knottingley, Yorkshire. They had one son, Peter. In 1198 he paid relief for his father's lands. In the period, 119LC1203, he confirmed to Guisborough Priory three bovates of land in Normanby granted by Richard Lost and Stephen son of Henry de Percy. In the same period, he confirmed to Guisborough Priory half a carucate in Brotton granted by his father, Adam de Brus, and two bovates of land in Brotton granted by Robert de Turnham. He was frequently present at King John's court, witnessing at least 13 of the king's charters between 1199 and 1213. In 1199 he sued his cousin, William de Brus, of Annandale in Scotland, regarding lands in Hartness; Peter subsequently quitclaimed the lands to William and his heirs, which William agreed to hold of Peter and his heirs for the service of two fees. About 1200 he witnessed a charter of Adam de Cridling to his brother-in-law, Roger de Lacy, Constable of Chester. About 1200 he and his wife, Joan, granted the monks of St. John of Pontefract a toft in Knottingley, Yorkshire. In 1203 he was sued by his half-sister, Agnes (de Flamville) de Percy, regarding her dower rights to a one third share of lands in Crathorne and Battersby, which her late husband had held of Peter. He was among the northern batons who met King John in the north in 1213. At an unknown date, he granted ten marks yearly in the mill of Knottingley, Yorkshire, which property he received in marriage with his wife, Joan, for the support of two canons, priests, celebrating in their church of the Park of Healaugh in the honour of St. James. SIR PETER DE BRUS died 12 Feb. 1222.
Coll. Top. et Gen. 4 (1837): 261-262 (Brus obits from calendar held by Gisburne Priory: “Orbitus Petri de Brus pimi. 16. K1. Februarii. [17 January].”'). Ord Hist. & Antiqs. of Cleveland (1846): 245-252. Fauconberge Fauconberge Memorial (1849): 62 (Fauconberge ped.). Forrest Hist. & Antiqs. of Knottingley (1871): 37-38. Flower Vis. of Yorkshire l563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 40 (Brus ped.: “Peter Brus ohiir in Ao 1211. = [left blank].”). Brown Cartularium Prioratus de Gyseburne 2 (Surtees Soc. 89) (1894): 1, 4-5, 7 , 27, 38, 42, 45-46, 62, 98, 101, 132-133, 138-140, 171, 188-190, 192-196, 198, 235-237, 239, 328-329. Holmes Chartulary of St. John of Pontefract 1 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 25) (1899): li-lii, 262-265, 272, 299-300; 2 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 30) (1902): 485 (charter of Adam de Cridling to Roger de Lascy, Constable of Chester dated c.1200). Clay Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 115-116 (sub Lacy). Farrer Early Yorkshire Charters 2 (1915): 15 (Brus ped.). Harvy et al. Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 152-156 (Brues ped.: “Petrus de Bruys primus”). Fauconberge Fauconberge Memorial (l849): 62 Fauconberge ped). Purvis Chartulary of the Augustinan Priory of St. John the Evangelist of Parj of Healaugh (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser 92) (1936): 151-152 (undated charter of Peter de Brus; charter names his wife, Joan). Wardell Hist. of Yarm (1957): 16. Yorkshire Arch. Jour. 47 (1975): 69-79. Thomas Vassals, Heiresses, Crusaders & Thugs: The Gentry of Angevian Yorkshire, 1115-1216 (1993): 206. Blakely Brus Fam. in England & Scotland, 1100-1295 (2005): 158 (“Although little is known about Peter I [de Brus];s wife, Joan, her maritagium included land and a mill at Knottingley in the Lacy fief. While the editor of the Pontefract cartulary believed that Joan was related to a tenant rather than the lord of the honor, the standing of the Brus family at the end of the twelfth century points to the later assumption.”). Legg Lost Cartulary of Bolton Priory (Yorkshire Arch.
Soc. Rec. Ser. 160) (2009): 82-85.

Mary

A book was written about The Brus Family in England and Scotland 1100-1295 by Ruth M. Blakely:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/scDYh8RTKXM/m/...

Page 45 from the book footnote 85:
The Grammary family had held some interest in Knottingley of the Lacys since
1086, but the Lacys appear to have retained the town, a fishery and mill; Pontefract
Cart., i. 262–5, 299–300; Healaugh Cart, 151–2, 182; EYC, i. 53–4; EYC, iii. 140–1, 186–
7, 193–4.

Page 158 Footnote 5
Appendix 3, nos 54, 60. The Grammary family had held of the Lacys in Knottingley
since 1086, but there is evidence to suggest that the Lacys themselves retained
an interest there; Pontefract Cart., i, pp. li–lii, 262–5; EYC, iii. 140, 185–8, 193–4.

Mary

It's quite difficult to see what goes where above, but this "Her maritagiurn included land and a mill at Knottingley, Yorkshire." seems the most likely place we'd find the primary source.
Is there a source citation attached to that in the text you're looking at Mary?

"About 1200 he witnessed a charter of Adam de Cridling to his brother-in-law, Roger de Lacy, Constable of Chester." - this might have a useful primary source reference to brother in law attached to it as well.

"At an unknown date, he granted ten marks yearly in the mill of Knottingley, Yorkshire, which property he received in marriage with his wife, Joan, for the support of two canons, priests, celebrating in their church of the Park of Healaugh in the honour of St. James." - this too, if we could show that the property was originally owned by Chester

Unfortunately the sources do not have a connection in the text, just that they go with that particular passage.
I tried a search in soc.genealogy.medieval group on Google but I did not find any additional information between Lacy and Cridling.

Mary

RE: https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/scDYh8RTKXM/m/...

"Blakely also discusses the wife of Peter I de Brus, usually given in
traditional pedigrees as Joan Grammary or le Grammaire because of a
charter of gift to Healaugh, from her maritagium, of a rent of 10 marks
from the mill at Knottingley (which appears later as a charge on the
Lacy estate)."

contradicts above suggesting this is Joan of Chester's dowry

The whole comment (which I found the pages and listed above by Blakely) is:

Blakely also discusses the wife of Peter I de Brus, usually given in traditional pedigrees as Joan Grammary or le Grammaire because of a charter of gift to Healaugh, from her maritagium, of a rent of 10 marks from the mill at Knottingley (which appears later as a charge on the Lacy estate). She explains that although the Grammary family had some interest in Knottingley, the Lacys appear to have retained the town, a fishery and mill, and consequently identifies Joan as a Lacy. This is a far more likely identification as the Grammarys were never more than minor knights in this period, and such a marriage would have been considered disparaging for the head of a baronial family. Interestingly, the first person to attest Peter's charter of liberties to Langbaurgh wapentake, a prototype of the Magna Carta, was Roger de Lacy.

Suggesting that while Grammarys were in the area, it was actually Lacy territory they were within.
Mary

Yes, I read it. I'm not trying to be difficult - just careful:

"She explains that although the Grammary family had some interest in Knottingley, the Lacys appear to have retained the town, a fishery and mill, and consequently identifies Joan as a Lacy." - it depends what she's basing this on, and we don't have access to that.

A quick persusal shows Chester as very far from Knottingley; shows more documentation of the Grammaries in Knottingley than the 'Chesters'; shows de Lacy as a surname taken on by her brother - not her father - and so unlikely to have been hers. I emphasise "quick' and acknowledge there is a later mention of a deLacy contract / contact - but nothing that I can see that isn't hearsay shows the wife to have been Joanna deLacy.

This is a very worthwhile Discussion to be having - and may yet turn up a source that makes it pretty definite she was 'Chester's' daughter, but right now I still see a lot of doubt and certainly enough to hold off on defining her parentage.

Sharon I do completely understand. Above I added the sources she used from her book:

Page 45 from the book footnote 85:
The Grammary family had held some interest in Knottingley of the Lacys since
1086, but the Lacys appear to have retained the town, a fishery and mill;
Pontefract Cart., i. 262–5, 299–300; Healaugh Cart, 151–2, 182; EYC, i. 53–4; EYC, iii. 140–1, 186–7, 193–4.

Page 158 Footnote 5
Appendix 3, nos 54, 60. The Grammary family had held of the Lacys in Knottingley
since 1086, but there is evidence to suggest that the Lacys themselves retained
an interest there;
Pontefract Cart., i, pp. li–lii, 262–5; EYC, iii. 140, 185–8, 193–4.

I agree there is some ambiguity here, but Richardson also calls her: Joan of Chester daughter of John, hereditary Constable of Chester, of Halton, Cheshire, Bilhaugh and Harworth, Nottinghamshire, etc., by Alice, daughter of Roger Fitz Richard, of Warkworth, Northumberland [see LACY 1 for her ancestry].
Although we do not know which specific sources link to that belief, her mentions that John was the Constable of Chester through hereditary. Which means the family was at least in the area of Chester. She may not have been born in Chester, but as a young woman she may have come from Chester.

In Vol III p 463 it identifies John as: John, of Halton, Chester, Bilhaugh and Harworth, Nottinghamshire, hereditary Constable of Chester, son and heir of Richard Fitz Eustace, of Halton, Chester, by Aubrey, daughter of Robert de Lisours, born about 1145.

Also, while there are no sources listed, I found this:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/3I56b154sIY/m/...

Ian,

The Honor of Pontefract was originally the land in Yorkshire (mainly) granted to Ilbert de Lacy after the Conquest. His holdings in Cheshire and Lancashire became known as the Honor of Clitheroe. On the death of Robert de Lacy in 1193 the honors passed to the daughter of his aunt, Albreda. The younger Albreda married before 1142 Richard fitz Eustace, constable of Chester. Their son John the Constable was succeeded by his son Roger who adopted the name of Lacy. In 1294, Henry de Lacy settled his possessions on himself for life, with remainder to Thomas son of Edmund Earl of Lancaster, who had married Henry's daughter Alice. The Honor of Pontefract thus became part of the Duchy of Lancaster.

Regards,
John

That shows Chester was a de Lacy hold out.

This post mentions some other resources that might help identify Joan's parentage. Unfortunately today if my crazy day and I won't have time to dig, but there might be something here:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/tJY0dNW5tgY/m/...

I do enjoy learning and understanding and TOTALLY making connections in my family Sharon. Ironically, even if Joan turns out not to be a de Lacy, her husband Peter still runs several gens up in my tree. I can easily mark Joan a ***do not follow*** in my tree until more information comes to light.
Thank you SO SO SO much for helping on this. I will continue to dig on my end :)
Mary

An enjoyable and informative read. Thank you.

ere's Blakely' 2000 thesis:
The Brus Family in England and Scotland 1100 http://etheses.dur.ac.uk

I've uploaded it to Peter I de Brus, Lord of Skelton ' profile

And Joan de Brus 's

The nub of Blakely's argument appears simply to be that the editor of the Pontefract Cantulary is wrong in his assumption that Peter Brus's wife is Joan Grammarly, not Joan Constable:

P207
Although little is known about Peter I's wife, Joan, her maritagium included a mill and land at Knottingley in the Lacy fee. While the editor of the Pontefract cartulary believed that Joan was related to a tenant rather than the lord of the honor, the standing of the Brus family at the end of the twelfth century would point to the latter assumption.7 [The Grammary family had held of the Lacys in Knottingley since 1086, but there is evidence to suggest that the Lacys themselves retained an interest there; Pontefract Cart., 1, pp. li-lii, 262-265; EYC, HI, pp.140, 185-188, 193-194; appendix 3, nos.53, 59.]

This is what the Pontefract Catulary Editor has to say in the Full text of "The chartulary of St. John of Pontefract, from the original document in the possession of Godfrey Wentworth, of Woolley Park:

...Peter de Brus, the heir of the great Skelton lordship, in
anticipation of the possession which was in due course to fall to
him, was alienating his wife's ancestral domains, and the property
had become divided into four. No. 1 was still in hand; No. 2 was
now being given to the monks of Pontefract; No. 3 was in the
hands of a tenant, Richard son of Sigereda; while the mill was being
hampered with a rentcharge in favour of the canons of Healaugh.

It may be interesting to know also that portions of the hedges
which separated this land from the adjacent properties are still in
existence; and that their line can be easily traced. The boundaries
by which it was abutted, that is by which the narrow ends were
bounded, were the road and the river.

Tongs Visitation states that the wife of this Peter de Brus
was a sister of Roger de Lascy, who gave her these lands in dowry.
But he adduces no evidences; and the general inaccuracy of that
Visitation with regard to twelfth and thirteenth century ancestries
does not prepossess the enquirer in favour of any such statement
,

FASCICULUS VI. — THE LEDSHAM CHARTERS. 263

unless well supported. On the other hand the careful genealogy in
the Whalley Chartulary, page 2, gives to John the constable, Roger's
father, one daughter only, Alice.

The line of the family of Ralph Grammaticus is not- clear, but
there are evidences that for some generations lands at or near
Knottingley continued to be held as a knight's fee by one of the
name, or by one who held through him. In 1166 the holder was a
Richard Grammaticus
: in the time of Testa de Nevill he was a
William, probably the same whom we have seen testing successively
No. 9 in 1 190, No. 97, No. 98, No. 99 and No. 19 before the close
of the century, and, with Richard his son, No. 175 in the time of
Robert Wallis, then sheriff of Yorkshire, about 1206.

The portion of the Knottingley demesne, which came to Peter de
Brus by his marriage with this heiress of a member of the Gram-
maticus family, may be traced even at this present day with no
particular difficulty. It included the site of St. Botolph's chapel, and
all to its south and west, between the highway and the river; to the
north of the road, to the south of the river. The portion which they
retained for their own occupation was the most westerly, that next
towards the east being the plot now given to the monks, and that
further away and next to that occupied by the chapel being the toft
of Richard, son of Sigereda, another heiress or widow. That the
chapel of St. Botolph was built upon a corner of the demesne of the
squire, was what one would expect in the last decades of the twelfth
century; the gift for ecclesiastical purposes of a similar section was a
constant practice, so constant in that century, and with hardly an
exception, that the very existence of the chapel might be taken as an
indication, even if the only one, of the position occupied by the lord's
demesne; it may be safely assumed that this chapel is a very little
earlier than the date of this charter. It was of course subsequent to
the formation of parishes in 1180, and as I judge previous to 1196,
the date of No. 229. Much of the old building remains, especially
the north wall, cased however with plaster; and the old west window
remained till lately, blocked up, and converted into a seat in the
modern gallery.

Another circumstance concurs to show the site to be the seat of a
branch of the Grammaticus family. Besides the King's Mills, there
are still on this small demesne two quasi-manorial residences, the
Manor House, occupied by Mr. Dickenson; and the ancient dwelling
of the seventeenth century Ingrams, now the Swan Inn. There were
thus on this small plot two distinct possessions, each claiming to be

264 THE CHARTULARY OF ST. JOHN.

the manor, and therefore the representative of the Grammaticus
family, who held the ancient demesne lands as a knight's fee in so
quiet a fashion that none of the extant charters of the time give
more than a token of their presence
, while from those to which
there is access, no complete twelfth century pedigree of the family
can be evolved. Except William in No. 175 and No. 177, only
Richard appears after Ralph, but that name crops up with such
frequency and is spread over so long an interval that it is probable
there were two Richards, father and son, or uncle and nephew;
though I have met with no evidence to determine even that point. 1

What was the exact relation of Joan, the wife of Peter, to the
Grammaticus lords, is thus doubtful, but with the coming of the
Brus there was an outpouring of liberality, not only towards the
Pontefract monks, but in at least one similar direction.

In the Healaugh Chartulary (Vespasian A 4, quoted by Dods-
worth) vol.116, fo. 87) is registered another charter of this Peter
de Brus and Joan his wife, granting to that priory ten marks of
silver from the mill of Knottingley, which the grantor rehearses that
he had "in marriage with Joan his wife
."

And by a comparison of this document with others in the same
repository, it is abundantly clear that the donor was Peter de Brus I.,
the lord of Skelton. Except indeed in these two charters (the
Healaugh document and our No. 229), I have met with no clue to
the personality of his wife Joan. The Healaugh deed, moreover,
indicates that she possessed at Knottingley, in her own right or by way
of marriage-gift, probably as a descendant of the Ralph Grammaticus
who owned that manor at the time of the foundation of St. Clement's
Chapel, and who, while he refused to make a grant of his own, was
not unwilling to receive somewhat in exchange, to enable Robert de
Lascy to contribute from it.

But in any case, whatever might have been the descent of the
wife of Peter de Brus, whether she obtained the property by descent
from the Grammaticus lords, as I am inclined to think, or whether
she was, as is sometimes alleged, of the family of the Constable of
Chester, and obtained it as dower by gift of her brother Roger de
Lascy, the new lord of Pontefract, she was at her marriage in clear
possession in her own right.
The present charter therefore would
have been one of the early gifts of Peter de Brus I., her husband,
before his full honours had come upon him, and while his father
Adam de Brus was still alive. The date of her marriage may be

(1) See note (3) to No. 155, and note (5) to No. 175.

FASCICULUS VI. THE LEDSHAM CHARTERS. 265

approximately fixed as occurring in or before 1196; and her son,

Peter de Brus II. , was of age at the death of his father in 1222.

The following is the Healaugh charter: —

Cott., Vesp. A 4, 133.

[To all Christ's faithful, Peter de Brus, greeting in the Lord. Know ye that

I have given, granted, and by this my charter confirmed to the canons

there serving God for the health of my soul and of Joan my wife, and of

all my ancestors and successors, ten marks of silver in the mill of Knottingley,
which I received in marriage with the aforesaid Joan my wife
; in pure and
perpetual alms for the support of two canon-priests, there to perform divine service
in their church of Helagh Park in honour of vSt. James. To be received annually
in [from] the same mill at one term, even at the feast of St. Michael. And if
perchance it happen that the said canons cannot fully receive ten marks in the
same mill, I and my heirs will make good in entirety ten marks to the same

canons, from our rents in Thorp and Walton. Warranty for ever. And

for the observance of this I have subjected myself and my heirs to the jurisdiction
of the dean and chapter of York, [power of] appeal being withdrawn. So that if
I or my heirs shall contravene this payment, it shall be lawful for the said dean
and chapter to place our lands under an interdict, and to compel us to the
aforesaid payment by ecclesiastical censure. And moreover that the lord
archbishop and the dean and chapter of York will excommunicate all contravening
this grant. And I, Peter de Brus, [have invoked] upon all my successors who
contravene this grant and my gift, the malediction of God. These being
witnesses, &c]

Omnibus Christi fidelibus Petrus de Brus, salutem in domino. Noveritis me
dedisse, concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse deo et ecclesie sancti Johannis
evangeliste de parco de Helagh et canonicis ibidem deo servientibus, divine pietatis
intuitu, pro salute anime mee et Johanne uxoris mee, et omnium antecessorum et
meorum successorum, decern marcas argenti in molendino de Knottynglay, quas
recepi in maritagio cum predicta Johanna, uxore mea. In puram et perpetuam
elemosinam ad sustentacionem duorum canonicorum presbitorum ibi divina celebra-
turorum in ecclesia sua de parcho de Helagh, in honcre sancti Jacobi, percipiendas
annuatim in eodem molendino ad unum terminum usque ad festum sancti Michaelis.
Et si forte contingat dictos canonicos non posse plenarie decern marcas in eodem
molendino percipere, ego et heredes mei perficiemus integre decern marcas eisdem
canonicis de redditibus nostris in Torp et Waleton. 1 Et ego et heredes mei
warentizabimus banc donacionem predictis canonicis contra omnes homines
imperpetuum. Et ad hoc observandum subjeci me et heredes meos jurisdictioni
decani et capituli Ebor', appellatione remota. Ita quod si ego vel heredes mei
contra hanc solutionem venerimus, licebit dictis decano et capitulo terras nostras
sub interdicto ponere, et nos ad predictam solucionem censura ecclesiastica
compellere. Et insuper do' 2 archiepiscopus et decanus et capitulum Ebor'
excommunicaverint omnes contra hanc donationem venientes. Et ego Petrus de
Brus omnibus successoribus meis contra hanc donationem venientibus maledictionem
dei et meum donum. Hiis testibus, Alano de Wiltona, Willelmo de 7a?ntona,
Henrico fdio Cunam', :i tunc seneschallo^ Roberto Sturmi, scrviente, et aliis.

https://archive.org/stream/chartularyofstjo01pont/chartularyofstjo0...

Here in 'The Chartulary of St John of Pontefract' is the 1200 Charter that Petro de Brus witnesses when Adam de Cridling quitclaims to Roger de Lascy "all the town of Cridling and all the town of Stubbs"
There is no suggestion that Peter is Roger's brother-in-law.

https://books.google.co.za/books?id=7cW9f1fSIvIC&pg=PA485&lpg=PA485...

Here in 'The Coucher Book Or Chartulary of Whalley Abbey' is the family tree on p2 referred to above by the editor of 'The chartulary of St. John of Pontefract'.

It shows Roger's only sister to be Alice, not Joan.

https://books.google.co.za/books?redir_esc=y&id=2_0rAAAAMAAJ&q=Roge...

I'm still trying to find the

Tongs Visitation states that the wife of this Peter de Brus was a sister of Roger de Lascy

It seems to be spelled Tonge - perhaps one of you two might have more success than me :-/

Sharon -
WOWZA and all I accomplished today was mowing an acre of lawn and planting flowers. I am in AWE truly.
Thank you SO SO SO much and I will work on this tonight or tomorrow.
Thank you for this. You are AMAZING.
Mary

:-)

an acre of lawn is wowza

Sharon -
LOL on the lawn. Thank heavens we have a riding lawn mower or our yard would be a jungle LOL
I finally got through all of Richardson's sources. I will post them below (I wrote where I found it and what I found regarding Joan), but after going through them I still found NO support that Joan was either a de Grammarie or de Lacy. I may have to contact Richardson via email and ask him directly. He may get back to me, but I am not sure.
However, at the end of the day, there (from what we both found) is no support either way.
Mary

Sources:
Coll. Topa. et Gen. – Collectanea Topogrophica el Genealogica. 4 (1837): 261-262 (Brus obits from calendar held by Gisburne Priory: “Orbitus Petri de Brus pimi. 16. K1. Februarii. [17 January].”'). (*** https://archive.org/details/collectaneatopog01londuoft/page/170/mod... - p. 7 mentions Joan, but no surname***)

Walker, John. The history and antiquities of Cleveland : comprising the wapentake of East and West Langbargh, North Riding, County York. Ord Hist. & Antiqs. of Cleveland (1846): 245-252. (*** https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/28614/ - Mentions the territory of Skelton in Cleveland where the Bruce/de Brus/Brus family settled after coming to England with the Conqueror; mentions this Peter and his clash with the barons, but no mention of Joan.***)

Fauconberge Fauconberge Memorial (1849): 62-63 (Fauconberge ped.). (*** https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/518090/?offset=43...= - Family Tree but does not show Joan.***)

Forrest, C. The History of The Antiquities of Knottingley In The Parish of Pontefract: With Historical Notices of The Neighboring Villages of Birkin, Brotherton, Fryston and Ferrybridge. . Hist. & Antiqs. of Knottingley (1871): 37-38. (***could not find***)

Flower, William. Vis. of Yorkshire 1563-4 (H.S.P. 16) (1881): 40 (Brus ped.: “Peter Brus ohiir in Ao 1211. = [left blank].”). (*** https://archive.org/details/TheVisitationOfYorkshireInTheYears1563A... - Family Tree but does not show Joan.***)

Brown, William. Cartularium Prioratus de Gyseburne 2 (Surtees Soc. 89) (1894): 1, 4-5, 7 , 27, 38, 42, 45-46, 62, 98, 101, 132-133, 138-140, 171, 188-190, 192-196, 198, 235-237, 239, 328-329. (***https://archive.org/details/cartulariumprio00browgoog/page/n15/mode... – search shows no links to de Lacy/Lacy/Laci/Lacie or Joan.***)

Holmes, Richard. Chartulary of St. John of Pontefract 1 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 25) (1899): li-lii, 262-265, 272, 299-300; 2 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 30) (1902): 485 (charter of Adam de Cridling to Roger de Lascy, Constable of Chester dated c.1200). (*** https://archive.org/details/chartularyofstjo01pont - p 14 mentions Peter de Brus charter to Healaugh = 270; p. 16 mentions Peter de Brus and wife Joan (no surname) = 299; p. 9-10/li-lii mentions Peter de Brus paying off debt to regain hereditary lands and mentions charter with Robert de Lascy and a small family tree of de Vesci to de Lascy; p. 33 small family tree of Peter de Brus I marrying Acicia or Roais granddaughter of Eudo, earl of Albemarle, Blois, and Champagne and her marrying 1st William de Romare, earl of Lincoln with grand of Conisborough and Pontfract, founded Revesby in 1142; pp. 262-265 mentions Peter and his wife sister of Roger de Lascy who gave her these lands in dowry, BUT on the next 2 pages it points out that the owner of the lands was originally in 1166 was Richard Grammaticus. However the Holmes points out that the link to the Grammaticus lords is thus doubtful. In the end Holmes is still unsure who Joan’s parentage is; pp. 299-300 mention the lands of Knottingly and mentions Joan but no surname; the last few pages are mentions of Peter de Brus in the index.***)

Clay, John W., The Extinct and Dormant Peerages of the Northern Counties of England (London, 1913). Clay Extinct & Dormant Peerages (1913): 115-116 (sub Lacy). (*** https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/348893/?offset=33...= - discussed the de Lacy family; no mention of Joan***)

Farrer, William. Early Yorkshire Charters 2 (1915): 15 (Brus ped.). (*** https://archive.org/details/earlyyorkshirech01farruoft/page/14/mode... - p. 87 only mentions the de Brus family; p. 399 mentions a fee from Peter de Brus to William de Stuteville for the lands of Knaresborough; most of the de Brus references are to Robert or Adam.***)

Harvey et al. Vis. of the North 3 (Surtees Soc. 144) (1930): 152-156 (Brues ped.: “Petrus de Bruys primus”). (*** https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/115528/?offset=0#... – only mention of Peter de Brus is as the brother of Margaret.***)

Purvis, John Stanley. Cartulary of the Augustinian Priory of St. John the Evangelist of Part of Healaugh (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser 92) (1936): 151-152 (undated charter of Peter de Brus; charter names his wife, Joan). (*** https://archive.org/details/YASRS092/page/150/mode/2up - mentions Joan with no surname, hut mentions the mill of Knottingley which he receive due to marrying Joan.***)
Wardell, John Wilford. A History of Yarm: an ancient North Riding town (1957): 16. (*** https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/326958?availability=Fam... – cannot access book is in main branch in Salt Lake City.***)

Vine, M. J. Yorkshire Arch. Jour. 47 (1975): 69-79. (*** https://archive.org/details/YAJ0471975/page/68/mode/2up - gives an overview of Peter’s debts no mention of Joan.***)

Thomas, Hugh M. Vassals, Heiresses, Crusaders & Thugs: The Gentry of Angevin Yorkshire, 1115-1216 (1993): 206. (***still a relatively new book, I was unable to locate a source to read it.***)

Blakely Brus Fam. in England & Scotland, 1100-1295 (2005): 158 (“Although little is known about Peter I [de Brus];s wife, Joan, her maritagium included land and a mill at Knottingley in the Lacy fief. While the editor of the Pontefract cartulary believed that Joan was related to a tenant rather than the lord of the honor, the standing of the Brus family at the end of the twelfth century points to the later assumption.”). (***already dug through this, not sure if Joan is a Grammery or Lacy.***)

Legg, Katrina. Lost Cartulary of Bolton Priory (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 160) (2009): 82-85. (***still a relatively new book, I was unable to locate a source to read it.***)

BTW I haven't had this much fun researching since I left college LOL

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