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Captain William Lindsay of Pitcarity of Forfar, RN - THE IDENTITY OF WILLIAM LINDSAY OF PITCARITY

Started by Private User on Thursday, November 25, 2021
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Private User
11/25/2021 at 5:35 AM

It has been claimed that William Lindsay of Pitcarity is the same person as Captain William Lindsay, RN., who was the second son of John Lindsay, nineteenth Earl of Crawford, and his wife Lady Amelia Stewart, but this proposition is not supported by the available evidence.

In my opinion, William Lindsay of Pitcarity and Captain William Lindsay, RN., are different people, and Pitcarity should be disconnected from the family tree of the Earls of Crawford, but I would welcome input from interested members of the Geni community.

The evidence for each of the before mentioned individuals is presented and considered below.

CAPTAIN WILLIAM LINDSAY, RN

According to the Scots Peerage, Captain William Lindsay, RN., was the second and youngest son of John Lindsay, nineteenth Earl of Crawford, and his wife Amelia Stewart. William’s elder brother, another John Lindsay, succeeded as the twentieth Earl of Crawford in 1713 and died on 24 December 1749, without a male heir to succeed him. His only surviving co-heirs were his sisters, that is the Lady Catherine Lindsay, and the Lady Mary Lindsay.

Again, according to the Scots Peerage, Captain William Lindsay, RN., died unmarried and without issue before 1 May 1755. The source of this information is not given, but in view of the fact that he was next-in-line to the Earldom it seems reasonable to suppose that he must have predeceased his older brother, because he did not succeed to the Earldom. It is certainly true that the Earldom passed to his distant cousin, George Lindsay, Viscount Garnock.

https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun03pauluoft/page/38/mode...

https://archive.org/details/scotspeeragefoun04pauluoft/page/177/mod...

WILLIAM LINDSAY OF PITCARITY

According to Darryl Lundy's Peerage, Captain William Lindsay, RN., is the same person as William Lindsay of Pitcarity, whose property was part of the lands of Woodend In the Forfarshire parish of Kirriemuir. Sources are cited by Lundy but these do not provide a reference to verifiable evidence of relationship.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p2336.htm#i23356

William Lindsay of Pitcarity held the land called Pitcarity in the period before 13 June 1782, the date upon which he transferred ownership to his second son Alexander Lindsay. The sasine transcripts mentioned below do not say so but in his disposition in favour of his son Alexander, William must have reserved his own liferent, and that of his wife Isobel Mair, for it would appear that his widow may still have been enjoying her liferent as late as 20 May 1805, the date upon which her son, Mr. James Lindsay of Newington Green, sold the lands of Pitcarity to Thomas Farquarson of Baldovie. Alexander Lindsay appears to have died without surviving issue and the lands of Pitcarity had passed to his brother James.

Geni - SASINE IN FAVOUR OF MR JAMES LINDSAY

Geni - DISPOSITION BY MR JAMES LINDSAY

Private User
11/25/2021 at 5:55 AM

For active links to the sasine transcripts previously referred to see the overview of William Lindsay of Pitcarity.
Erica Howton C
11/25/2021 at 2:45 PM

Hi Irma Ekman

I’m a Geni volunteer curator and have worked Neil on geni for many years. Maybe I can help sort this through with you all.

Can you point me (link) to the Correct Family Tree DNA group and subgroup, and also, perhaps, to trees on other platforms that trace the pedigree?
Erica Howton C
11/25/2021 at 3:54 PM

I see this so far:

https://www.geni.com/path/Irma-Ekman+is+related+to+Captain-William-Lindsay-of-Pitcarity-of-Forfar-RN?from=6000000075321586842&path_type=blood&to=6000000014169481274

“Captain William Lindsay of Pitcarity of Forfar, RN is Irma Ekman's fifth great grandfather.”

Father of Rev. Doctor of Divinity James Lindsay, of Newington Green

Father of Emily Lindsay

So I’m just going to double check those first.
Erica Howton C
11/25/2021 at 4:38 PM

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/LindseyLindsay?iframe=yresults Is the FamilyTree Lindsay project, but I don’t know which group / subgroup.

Erica Howton C
11/25/2021 at 5:38 PM

I added a record based profile for the father of Isobel Mair:

Alexander Mair

Please double check.
Erica Howton C
11/25/2021 at 6:20 PM

Are there any references for the profile Marion Anderson seen as wife of John Lindsay, 19th Earl of Crawford, 3rd Earl of Lindsay
Irma Ekman
11/25/2021 at 8:13 PM

Morning from finland, I will check this Marion Andersson, I havent personally never heard of her, but that does not mean that she havent be. I will look all sources today and I wwill back to you today later and thank you.

Best Regards

Irma Ekman
Irma Ekman
11/25/2021 at 8:47 PM

Dear Erica Howton, I am so weak and not so good of these connectionthings, so I must ask help for Paavo Salonen, who have helped us with those connetions 10 years ago. I am very thankful that we are here to co operate with all members, and will try to solve these problems together with dna and facts.That is fact that we all have tested in FTDNA and we are member in these groups.

Best Regards

Irma Ekman
Erica Howton C
11/25/2021 at 8:50 PM

Thank you. I am interested in the DNA test conditions, and how this Lindsay line of Pitcarity was determined be from the Earls of Crawford line.

Irma Ekman
11/25/2021 at 9:23 PM

from where I can put these things ? is there some email addres to send these?
Irma Ekman
11/25/2021 at 9:40 PM

we have also sasines of which proof the past ownership of these lands also sasin from where re. James Lindsay has sold everything away.
Irma Ekman
11/25/2021 at 9:57 PM

zMATERNALS: Lindsay Daughters or their descendents male and female/ we belong in group 1 I have email here from Joseph Lindsay- Mr headnmaster in Lindsay Investigation nowadays after Mr Ron Lindsay , who was before. Our line is not pjor maleline so we have there first Emily Lindsay and then Amanda Ekman females in this line, those numbers I want to get privatly so we are in Gedmatch in private Royal Stewart group and I can get some lists to proof these connections , but really need some email address to send these materials.I will want also that please ask and chek also now connetions fom Neil Reid Fords connections to this family. I do not need this information myself from him and I do not give our explanations to him, but this must be fair situation for all.

Best Regards

Irma Ekman
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 12:48 AM

Dear Erica,

As promised, I checked my records regarding Marion Anderson, and confirm that I have no references to her at this point. So in case you have specific questions it might be the best if you turn to the owner of the profile for further details.
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 3:38 AM

Thank you very much for checking, I’ve disconnected Marion Anderson as wife of John Lindsay, 19th Earl of Crawford, 3rd Earl of Lindsay - can always be reconnected if evidence is found.

The descent from Rev. Doctor of Divinity James Lindsay, of Newington Green and the profiles of his brothers Alexander Lindsay of Pitcarity & Robert Lindsay seem fine, & documented.

So the questions are about how the Captain of the Royal Navy, who died without children in 1755 according to peerage reports, is the same person as Mr. William Lindsay of Pitcarity.

Documents are best cited, and / or uploaded to profile. I’ll describe my questions more next.
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 4:01 AM

Hi, correct and that has been and is in the centre of our research. We are digging this specific time and people mentioned in our sasins. And following the landownership line. One question has been the unfortunate lack of death certificate (time and place) so we are not sure when and where that happened. WL definetly had connections e.g. to Jamaica through his sons, RN and etc. It is also good to keep in mind that the time was the golden era of colonialism, so people were travelling a lot. There are inconsistent theories of his time of death, the reference in peerage to 1755 is an estimate, not verified either. In one speech some were talking about 1749 and on the other hand 1782 there were made sasines signed by WL... So we are going to continue the research - which is the core of the genealogy and family research!
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 4:24 AM

Yes, the connection to Jamaica is fascinating. It makes me wonder what sort of family the Lindsays of Pitcarity were, on the social scale.

I’m used to lack of records, it’s hundreds of years ago.

Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 4:26 AM

Are there Y DNA tests? It’s too long ago for at DNA.
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 6:09 AM

Hi,

Regarding your question of their role - William Lindsay and his wife were landowners and had ownerships e.g., lands of Woodend, Spott and Dalinch and other areas.
About DNA we are for sure tested ourselves, and what comes to the linkage to any other pedigree we'll have to trust the skills of e.g. FTDNA and GedMatch to tie the lineages together by segment analysis. No doubt, they have the best knowledge available.

And to get to the original data privacy questions and who are the participants in this discussion. Can you pls somehow explain to what is Neil's potential connection to Lindsay/Craword family? due to he initiated this discussion.
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 9:11 AM

Hi Irma,

Neil is not blood related to these Lindsays and is only concerned with accurate genealogy, no axe to grind. Same as me! But what we show on Geni is picked up by people’s personal trees, I see that on Ancestry and indeed, the peerage, citing Geni. Self referential! So we have to tighten this up.

As I said, descent from the issue of Isabel Mair looks fine to me, and I don’t really need to see details of DNA testing for that. I think others would agree.

But identifying the Pitcarity line with the Earls of Crawford needs more proof. You don’t have it, I don’t think. You would need Y DNA (males only), it’s too long ago for a female descent.

I have hopes the correct Lindsay line can be found in time. But as long as the Pitcarity Lindsays are attached the way they show now, no one will look, and we’ve possibly perpetuated an error.
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 10:47 AM

I am a geni volunteer curator, working on genealogies on Geni, including many Scots lines, since 2010. Certainly can request other Geni Curators take a look also, are there any Finnish voluntary curators you have worked with?

The citations on thepeerage (http://www.thepeerage.com/p2336.htm#i23356) for the marriage & children of

Captain William Lindsay1
M, #23356, b. 3 April 1705

  • 1. [S37] BP2003 volume 2, page 2343. See link for full details for this source. Hereinafter cited as. [S37]
  • 2 [S474] FamilySearch, online http://www.familysearch.com. Hereinafter cited as FamilySearch.
  • 3. [S9464] Irma Ekman, "re: Lindsay Family," e-mail message to Darryl Roger LUNDY (101053), 7 Oct 2021. Hereinafter cited as "re: Lindsay Family."

The third reference is from you, so that’s what I mean by “self referential.”

I don’t have Burke’s 2003 but other editions of Burke’s don’t have the wife & children, I don’t think?

The second reference to FamilySearch doesn’t link to anything specific, but I’ll double check to see if it’s a tree, or with records that establish Pitcarity’s ancestry.
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 10:54 AM

And the references for http://www.thepeerage.com/p73717.htm#i737163 are from you - and from the Geni profile for Isobel Mair. That’s self referential as a citation also. But we have her birth record so we’re good.
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 11:04 AM

There's some really bad misunderstanding!

How could there be a wife and three children in some of Burke's books when they were just discovered about 3 years ago in the sasins that are here??? Nimenomaan Woodend lands, Pitcarity Cortachy of Clova , Angus Scotland
For Heaven's sake, we want justice and that we can present this evidence somewhere other than an open discussion forum, the DNA is allowed to inspect and we ask permission to give comparisons from the Royal Stewart community, but so these must be presented privately, never permission that we can present these publicly, thank you, but, we do not doubt your professionalism, but we suspect that if you know him, you can be a person, you're not fit to look into our case.
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 11:18 AM

First of all, we have never needed the help of geni curators anywhere before, now is a whole new and very confusing situation,

yes, when that information about Isobel Mair and the children has been excavated from sacins, this information also shows this draft sacin on our website , that third one is my reported email, which you mention here, what about then?

How can that DNA alignment, I really cannot give any contact numbers in public here and since no other place or reliable address has been assigned to me here , where and with what reliable entity can I show and go through these?, I do not know what to do?
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 11:28 AM

I repeat, I can't believe my eyes, why is it so difficult to include DNA in this, which has proven to suggest that the line is Lindsay line 1? of course, documents are important, but in such a situation, when the death certificate is missing from everyone!!!

The suspected dates of death the deceased have three different and three possibilities of the place of death, either the sea, Kirriemuir or Jamaica , the brother has made the perfect pancreas and William's recovered vassal lands have already been sold in 1805 for a large sum when the countries have been pledge, I wonder why they were pawned? If that class is declared bankrupt, the whole family will have had its share. should also take into account these issues in Sasins on Confirmation and Precept of Clare Constat of the date of the date of and containment the Precept of sasine after insert made and granted by Archibald Douglas of Douglas Esquire whereby for the causes therein specified he the Ratified and approved and for him his heirs and successors perpetually confirmed a Disposition etc...

This nonsense is also a picture of this on the website of Captain William Lindsay of Pitcarity of Forfar
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 11:57 AM

Behind eight knees
Companies that perform DNA tests usually sell three types of kinship-related tests: remote cousin tests and father and mother line tests.

You can only take a father line test for men. It lists relatives who have conducted the test and share ancestors in a straight father line: father's verses... From fatherline you find both fathers and before been mothers dna lines, because men have both Y and x -cromosomes

from Mtdna you find only motherline because there is no Y-chromosome so another way to say it is
The mother line, on the other hand, lists relatives who are related through a unified line of mothers.

Autosomaltest = cousintest
The remote cousin test brings together biological relatives who are related by any way.
Tests find kinships five or even eight generations ago.
— The results of the tests are reliable in terms of family knowledge. They are based on scientific methods that have been in place for 30 years. Through similar tests, we have investigated, for example, where Finns come from and when and through which we have come here, docent of genetic epidemology
Teppo Varilo
The Faculty of Medicine of the University of Helsinki says.

Of cource we have taken also from my brother BigY 500 and BigY700 tests so we really are aware our tests
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 12:04 PM

Can you point out on the spreadsheet for the FamilyTree FamilyTree Lindsay International Project the Lindsay line(s) of concern? I’m interested in the haplogroup(s). The Y 67 page is probably needed.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/LindseyLindsay?iframe=yresults

I “think” there is no known Crawford line besides the proposed Pitcarity line to compare with, is there a collateral line with a common ancestor?

I see I see https://www.facebook.com/groups/800511687014448/?ref=share (royal stewart dna discovery group aka (royal & noble dna ...). Is that what you refer to?
Erica Howton C
11/26/2021 at 12:10 PM

This point might be where Geni has a difference of opinion:

“Tests find kinships five or even eight generations ago. ”

Geni is quite conservative on AT DNA for historic figures. Links from accounts at FamilyTree (you and your family should link yours - it’s free) propogate 4 gens for AT DNA and 10 gens for Y & mt DNA.

https://help.geni.com/hc/en-us/articles/229707687-How-do-I-link-Fam...
Anne Brannen C
11/26/2021 at 1:11 PM

Thanks, Private User for your work on this. Good catch.

The argument from documentation, if I'm reading this right, boils down to the thesis that Captain William Lindsay, RN -- who must have been dead by December of 1749, since he did not succeed to the earldom he would otherwise have been in line for -- cannot be the same person as the William Lindsay of Pitcarity, who was alive in 1789.

Well that seems pretty clear.

The DNA issue is interesting to me -- certainly in the Middle Ages we can't establish a DNA line unless we pretty much have a body, unless it's possible to triangulate three well-documented and separate lines to an ancestor.

These people are 2 or 3 hundred years closer to us, but isn't it still problematic? Geni draws the DNA line closer in than this, true?
Irma Ekman
11/26/2021 at 1:19 PM

And for this discussion, you Erica Howton have said : I have hopes the correct Lindsay line can be found in time. But as long as the Pitcarity Lindsays are attached the way they show now, no one will look, and we’ve possibly perpetuated an error.

Answer to you and something that you should read and study:

this kind of information that Sir David Lindsay of Glenesk who was made the first Earl of Crawford. It was his father who married into lands in Angus. Angus is where your James traces to and his father William had lands there, up in Glen Prosen. The Prosen flows into the Esk. Glen Prosen, Glen Esk,.... these are all in Angus. Lindsays were everywhere in the Glens of Angus. Crawford Lindsays mainly. (The Dunrod Lindsays in Kirriemuir and Dundee. Dunrod is associated with the West, west of Glasgow.) Angus was the seat of the Earls of Crawford for many centuries.

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