Gudrod the Black, King of Man & the North Isles - Who was his mother?

Acc to one version on medlands:

OLAV of Man, son of ([1080]-murdered 29 Jun 1153). The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum names “Lagmannum, Haraldum et Olavum” as the three sons of “Godredus Crovan”[1288]. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that “Murecardum O’Brien regem Hibernie” sent “Dompnaldum filium Tade” to island as regent for Olav after the death of Lagman, dating the event to 1111[1289]. King of Man. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that the regent ruled for three years with great tyranny until he was expelled to the Ireland by the people of Man[1290]. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that Olav was recalled from exile at the court of Henry I King of England in 1114 and ruled for forty years[1291]. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that King Olav in 1134 gave land in the Isle of Man to Yvo Abbot of Furness on which to build the abbey of Rushen[1292]. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that “tres filii Haraldi fratris Olavi” who had been brought up in Dublin demanded part of the kingdom of the Isles from their paternal uncle King Olav and that one of them “Reginald” murdered his uncle, dating the murder to 29 Jun 1153 in a later passage[1293].

m AUFRICA, daughter of FERGUS Lord of Galloway & his wife ---. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that “Olavus filius Godredi Crovan” married “Affricam…filiam Fergus de Galwedia”[1294]. Olav & his wife had one child:

1. GODRED (-Isle of St Patrick, Isle of Man 10 Nov 1187, bur Iona). The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum names “Godredum” as the child of “Olavus filius Godredi Crovan” and his wife “Affricam…filiam Fergus de Galwedia”[1295]. Godred had three illegitimate children by unknown mistresses:

b) RAGNALD (-killed in battle Tynwald 1228, bur St Mary of Furness). The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum names “Reginaldum, Olavum et Yvarum” as the three sons of King Godred, adding that their father had nominated his legitimate son Olav as his successor, but that the Manxmen chose Ragnald as king because he was older[1302]. The birth date of his daughter, wife of the Welsh princes, indicates that Ragnald must have been much older than his legitimate half-brother. King of Man. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that Olav recovered Man from his half-brother in 1226[1303]. "Ragdnaldus…rex Insularum" donated "totam medietatem terre…Ormeshan…apud portum de Corna et aciam terram Asmundertoftes" to St Bees by undated charter, witnessed by "…Gospatricio filio Henrici…"[1304]. The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that Olav was murdered in 1228 and buried at St Mary of Furness[1305]. m ---, daughter of --. Her parentage is confirmed by the Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum which records that King Ragnald arranged the marriage of his half-brother Olav to “filiam cujusdam nobilis de Kentyre germanam uxoris suæ, nomine Jauon”[1306]. Ragnald [& his wife] had four children:
c) IVAR . The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum names “Reginaldum, Olavum et Yvarum” as the three sons of King Godred[1317].
d) AUFRICA (-after 1219, bur Grey Abbey of the Cistercians, Strangford Lough[1318]). The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum records that “Johannes…de Curci” married “filiam Godredi…Affricam” who had founded “abbatiam Sanctæ Mariæ de Jugo Dei” where she was buried[1319]. Aufrica’s husband was one of the first conquerors of Ireland under Henry II King of England in the 1170s[1320]. m (1180[1321]) JOHN de Curcy, son of --- (-before 22 Sep 1219).

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#OlavMandied...

Acc to another version on Medlands

INGIBJÖRG . Orkneyinga Saga names “Harald…Smooth-Tongue and two daughters…Ingibjorg…Margaret” as the children of Earl Hakon and his mistress Helga, adding that Ingibjörg married “Olaf Tit-Bit King of the Hebrides”[982]. m [as his second wife], OLAV Bitling King of Sodor and Man 1097-1098 and 1103-1153, son of ---. Olav & his wife had one child:

i) GODROD . His parentage is deduced from the Orkneyinga Saga which records that the mother of “Rognvald Godrodarson, King of the Hebrides” was “Ingibjorg, Earl Hakon Paulsson’s daughter”[983]. m ---. The name of Godrod’s wife is not known. Godrod & his wife had one child:

(a) RAGNVALD Godradarson . King of Man and the Isles. Orkneyinga Saga records that the mother of “Rognvald Godrodarson, King of the Hebrides” was “Ingibjorg, Earl Hakon Paulsson’s daughter”[984]. William "the Lion" King of Scotland sold Caithness to him after the battle of Wick in 1198. He lost Caithness to Harald [II] Maddadsson Jarl of Orkney in 1200. http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc268450047

cf Ragnvald IV Gudrödsson, King of Mann and the Isles

According to Wikipedia he married them both (and had lots of concubines); the information on Ingebjorg comes from one of the sagas, which may be why it's not in Medlands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93l%C3%A1fr_Gu%C3%B0r%C3%B8%C3%B0arson_(died_1153)

I think the problem is with this version:

• Orkneyinga Saga says Ingibjörg married “Olaf Tit-Bit King of the Hebrides”[982]
• But also Orkneyinga Saga records that the mother of “Rognvald Godrodarson, King of the Hebrides” was “Ingibjorg, Earl Hakon Paulsson’s daughter”[983].

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc268450047

Rognvald is Olaf's grandson, not his son

Anne, Cawley has the Orkneying saga too. See above

One solution is to simply presume that the Orkneying saga - (Much more of a story than records, perhaps?)

has just missed a generation, and

Olaf x Aufrica

• Godrod x NN Mistress = actually Ingiborg
  • Rognvald

The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum names “Reginaldum, Olavum et Yvarum” as the three sons of King Godred

Reidar Holmsen - good grief, that's uncalled for! I love the Orkneying saga. I have my own book copy that I bought in Orkney - where I travelled to visit because of the saga. Medieval Orkney is my project: https://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Orkney/12500 - please scroll down to the Sources.

My pet amusement for years has been trying to figure out exactly which Scots leader 'Karl Hundasson' is. (Is he Macbeth? Is he Duncan or one of the sons/in laws?)

So I'm perfectly confident (and not disparaging) when I say that not all of the details in the Orkneying saga are considered perfectly accurate by historians, and it's quite likely that a record from the Isle of Man is a valuable gloss on the narrative motivations of the saga.

Where I have access to the original names, I always insert them. As to the use of shorthand nicknames to distinguish between generations - it helps a lot when you're trying to untangle a knot of mismerges. If I don't know a better version that I can defend, I try not to mess with the version the managers have used already.

I do not think the irony of the Viking nicknames has been lost over time at all. In fact, sanitizing them out loses a lot that is crucial to our appreciation of who they were. A society that calls a mate Ketill "Flat Nose", is highly likely to have called Olaf the equivalent of "Morsel". Sanitising that out in the translation to mean Olaf, the Younger is to lose the entire character of the people doing the nicknaming. Why?

So the problem can be framed entirely in terms of the Orneyingsaga contradicting itself:

• It says that Ingibjörg married “Olaf Tit-Bit King of the Hebrides”
• & it also says that the mother of “Rognvald Godrodarson, King of the Hebrides” was “Ingibjorg, Earl Hakon Paulsson’s daughter”

Either Ingiborg is the wife/mother of Olaf's children, or she's the wife/mother of his son, Godrod's, children

While the solution may be that Ingiborg had an affair with her stepson; it seems ridiculous to ignore the fact that

The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum tells us that:

• Olavus filius Godredi Crovan” married “Affricam…filiam Fergus de Galwedia”[1294].
• and also names “Godredum” as the child of “Olavus filius Godredi Crovan” and his wife “Affricam…filiam Fergus de Galwedia
• and gives Godred a daughter named Aufrica “filiam Godredi…Affricam”, which suggests that his mother wasn't Ingiborg but Aufrica.

So, the solution then is to leave Olav with two wives - Ingiborg and Aufrica, as per Anne's point,

and move Godred to be the son of Aufrica,

cf Olaf I "Morsel", King of Man & the Isles

Reidar Holmsen I see no way that you are being bullied or belittled. I found "This degradation is totally uncalled for" to be both, however. I'm certainly allowed to defend myself from that, and let you know what a supporter I am of the Orkneying saga. Authorial intention is important.

I appreciated your input. Went and double checked the Chronicon Manniae, but the fact remained that the contradiction is created by the saga itself.

On naming conventions - I try to get the naming fields to reflect, as closely as we can get them to, the actual names that the people involved would have used in their own language. It's harder to access the Old Norse to cut and paste - and I'd love help with this.

PS I see your father was born on the Witwatersrand in SA, where I am.

"This degradation is totally uncalled for" was your completely unprovoked comment on my motivation and ability to objectively discuss a source. The terminology was both unnecessary and rude.

I'm finished discussing this; it's becoming gratuitous.

Story is the very definition of a saga

• "saga /ˈsɑːɡə/ noun: a long story of heroic achievement, especially a medieval prose narrative in Old Norse or Old Icelandic."
  
• As was generally the case with Icelandic language writing of this period, the aims of the saga were to provide a sense of social continuity through the telling of history combined with an entertaining narrative drive.[9] The saga is thought to have been compiled from a number of sources, combining family pedigrees, praise poetry and oral legends with historical facts. In the case of the Orkneyinga saga the document outlines the lives of the earls of Orkney and how they came about their earldom.[7] Woolf (2007) suggests that the task that the Icelandic compiler was faced with was not dissimilar to trying to write a "history of the Second World War on the basis of Hollywood movies".[7] He also notes that a problem with medieval Icelandic historiography in general is the difficulty of fixing of a clear chronology based on stories created in a largely illiterate society in which "AD dating was probably unknown".[7] As the narrative approaches the period closer to the time it was written down, some historians have greater confidence in its accuracy.[9] For example, there are significant family connections between Snorri Sturluson and Earl Harald Maddadsson (d. 1206) and the original saga document was probably written down at about the time of Harald's death.[8][b]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orkneyinga_saga
  

I was offended that you would suggest I was degrading the Orkneying Saga by simply pointing out that the authorial intentions were as much narrative as documentary, when I am actually so partial to it. Degrading is a strong insult.
You were offended that I was offended.
You have said. I have said. There is not much more to be said here. Let's leave it now.

Please, don't believe that the Orkneyinga saga is historical correct. It is written in late 12th century but no copy of this exist, Snorre probably used parts of this saga for his Heimskringla, that is by todays viking age historians is thought of as not trustworthy when talking abot the relationship between Harald Fairhair and his supposed descendants Olav Trygvason and Olav Haraldson (St. Olav). The Orkneyinga saga is today a part of Flateyjarbok and this manuscript is written between 1387 and 1394, which is several hundred years after the events depicted, and as such they are not thought to be trustworthy anymore.

Private User — it’s very true that it’s important to weigh our sources.

For all of the early sources, across Europe (I can’t speak to anyplace else), scholars agree that they cannot be taken at face value. When we weigh their accuracy as to historical fact, we consider the purpose of the work, the audience, the historical context, and — since so few of the surviving early manuscripts were physically produced at the time that the work was composed — the conditions under which the versions we have were created, the purpose of the copying, and context.

(This is why Remi points out that the versions of the saga in question that are extant have been created so much later than the original would have been. This is extremely important, in interpretation.)

Over the years that I’ve watched the Geni Saga Discussion play out, I’ve seen that it’s not just that users are divided as to how far to take the sagas as fact, but that it’s possible to find studies that back up various positions.

But it is, then, important to weigh the sources carefully.

In the links you give above, the link to the Geni project is to a project that attempts to make sense of the various family connections. That doesn’t really speak to whether the history is true.

The article on jstor is a solid scholarly article, but it has nothing to do with whether or not the history is correct; it’s a study of the ways in which the structure of genealogy connects to literary structure in the sagas.

The Smithsonian article is a popular article, so not good evidence; the article is mostly concerned with the work of Nancy Marie Brown, who has written a book about the real Valkyries — it’s published by St. Martin’s Press, so is not a scholarly book. (A scholarly book would be peer reviewed and published by a scholarly press, rather than a popular one.)

The early works that we have, written in the early Middle Ages, are extremely valuable. But they are never easy to work with.

So I value the scholars who bring expertise to the problem. If they say that a particular saga is not trustworthy in parts of its history, I myself take that seriously.

(I don’t study Icelandic, so I rely on other scholars. But I know how frustrating it is when someone tries to tell me that Geoffrey of Monmouth — or Giraldus Cambrensis, or especially Orderic, now that I think of it — is a trustworthy writer because he was writing history. All these writers were writing history as they understood what that means. But it is not what it means today.)