Ellen (de Menteith) Ferrers - Proposed wife

Affected children:

Henry de Ferrers, 2nd Lord Ferrers of Groby

Ralph de Ferrers

Sir Thomas Ferrers

Henry de Ferrers, 2nd Lord Ferrers of Groby

I apologize if this question is 'out of date,' but I have Anne de Ferrers as daughter of William de Ferrers (1st Baron Ferrers of Groby) and Ellen Margaret de Segrave in my private DB....is this wrong?

Marvin Loyd Welborn - it’s a new find! So of course you have the “traditional” genealogy.

Read the article - https://media.geni.com/p13/bb/fa/cf/28/5344485e789c839d/tsg_the_ear...

And I believe there’s another, I’ll try to get access. J. Ravilious, a medievalist, has been working on the Menteith’s with a Scottish expert, and they’ve come up with some new identifications.

Here’s a great explainer:

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/688069/daughter-ellen-married-william-...

William de Ferrers got royal license in 1317 to settle Groby, his own inheritance, on himself and his wife Ellen and the heirs of their bodies, remainder to Murdac de Menteith.

These things were generally worded to obscure their intentions. But why Menteith?

According to Ravilious, the old theory was that Ferrers had a daughter married to Menteith, but this had recently been disproved.

Also, Richardson had recently shown that Ferrers's mother was a Durward, not a Dispenser.

In the light of which, Ravilious goes on a fresh hunt for the Menteith connection.

Complete Peerage said Ferrers's wife Ellen, known from the 1317 license, was said to be a Segrave. Chris Phillips mentions evidence which tends to support this.

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/p_ferrersofgroby.shtml

Evidently things have moved on since then, in favour of a view that Segrave was a previous wife, before Ellen.

Apparently part of the evidence is a letter of Master la Warre (a Segrave descendant) to the bishop of Norwich, mentioning his kinship. The bishop was the son of Ferrers's daughter Anne, so the kinship is explained if Anne's mother is a Segrave.

However, if Ferrers's son Henry were the son of a 1st wife, the effect of the 1317 deal, assuming it took place, would be to disinherit him. But we know Groby descended to Henry. And it's unlikely Anne was older than Henry.

Ravilious disposses of the Warre letter by saying the two men had a more distant but more significant kinship, being descended from two of the co-heiresses of Roger de Quincy, earl of Winchester.

This clears the decks for him to propose that Ellen was a Menteith.

He mentions some heraldic stuff, but that only says there was some Menteith connection, which we knew.

There's no direct proof. In fact there's no direct evidence that Alexander had a daughter called Ellen, though the name was used in the family.

Super, thanks.