Cadwgon ab Elystan - Who Was the Mother of Cadwgan ap Elystan Glodrydd' s Children

Started by Steven Mitchell Ferry on Tuesday, August 4, 2020

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Steven Mitchell Ferry C

8/4/2020 at 3:15 PM

Bartrum does not list who was the mother for Cadwgan's children, although he does list Cadwgan's wives (discount Angharad ferch Llawr, as she married Cadwgan ap Elystan of Powys) : https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5047/elystan....

Darrell Wolcott says that he has no strong opinion on the matter at this time. So:

Dwnn i, 271 shows Hoedliw to be the son of Efa ferch Gwrgan. Dwnn i, 313 shows all of Cadwgan's children (12 sons, 4 daughters) to be the children of Efa ferch Gwrgan, including Llewelyn ap Cadwgan. Dwnn i, 332 says Idnerth is the son of Efa ferch Gwrgan, as does Dwnn ii, 152.

Dwnn i, 313 assigns no children to Jane ferch Brochwel, nor does Dwnn ii, 152. Only Dwnn i, 139 assigns one child, Llewelyn ap Cadwgan (see above paragraph for same ) and misnames her as Elen.

Here in Geni we have assigned no children to Efa ferch Gwrgan. It looks like all children have been assigned to Jane, except Constance Wen, who married Efa's half brother, Iestyn ap Gwrgan ( so highly doubtful that Efa was the mother of Constance Wen.)

So I'm throwing this out there to see if anyone else has any source material to shed further light on this.

Amy Anderson

8/4/2020 at 6:39 PM

Hi Steven, Anne Brannen cleaned up the Welsh lines a couple/few years ago; she's the one who knows the most, to my knowledge.

Amy Anderson

8/4/2020 at 6:44 PM

Anne added this note under the "Master Profile" heading at the top of the profile:

Curator Note from Anne Brannen (5/26/2016):
In the medieval genealogies, several Cadwigan ap Elystans have been conflated. Please be very careful when merging, and make sure all fields match.

Amy Anderson

8/4/2020 at 6:46 PM

Anne's name is highlighted as Curator of the profile; click on her name to go to her profile and send a message.

Steven Mitchell Ferry C

8/5/2020 at 6:00 AM

Thanks @Amy Anderson. Anne and I have been collaborating for some time now on the Welsh lines, and she will surely see this discussion.

Anne Brannen C

8/12/2020 at 7:20 AM

Hi, Steven Mitchell Ferry! Sorry it took me a while to get back into the Welsh lines.

Looks to me like we need to go with Dwnn in this case -- one of the advantages to Dwnn (can't believe I'm saying this) is that, though he does not reconcile the manuscripts, he at least says what they are. Yay.

On the other hand, he doesn't reconcile.

You asked for source material -- the manuscripts ARE the sources, and as you know, they don't agree all the time.

Am I reading this right, above, that basically Dwnn, in his transcriptions of the manuscripts, assigns all the children to Efa? does this include Constance?

I know I can go look up Dwnn myself -- but that will take a while, so I'm hoping to not have to. lol.

Steven Mitchell Ferry C

8/12/2020 at 9:39 AM

@Anne Brannen In one chart he assigns Llewelyn to Jane, and that is the only child attributed to her. There are multiple Constances all attributed to Efa, but none listed as Constance Wen. But that Constance married Iestyn, Efa's younger half brother, so doubtful that Efa was the mother of Constance Wen, and doubtful that Efa was the mother of ALL those other children. In my private chart I have Efa as the mother of Idnerth, Annes, and Iorwerth, but again, it is only a guess. I think I'm on solid ground with Idnerth, as one of the Dwnn charts deals specifically with his line.

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Cadwgon ab Elystan - Who Was the Mother of Cadwgan ap Elystan Glodrydd' s Children

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