https://www.geni.com/people/Hananya-ben-Haninai-haKohen-al-Nahr-Paqod-Dayan-of-the-Gate-Gaon-of-Sura/6000000001263102021

I have asked from a curator to review a merge from a few years ago, to see whether this is the source of the error.

I will paste the URL of the profile here, so it is clickable:-
Hananya "Dayan of the Gate" ben Haninai al-Nahr Paqod, Gaon of Sura

All of the gaon / reish gelutah profiles are a mess, unfortunately.

There were multiple profiles in some cases that were created according to different traditions (including some Islamic and pre-Islamic traditions that differ slightly from ours), and then people just merged them all together.

Thank you for your feedback. I hope that order can be made to at least this blatent error. I think that the correct approach in this case is to maintain multiple profiles where traditions can deviate from each other.

Sorting it out has been a bit of a thankless task. Several people did some work on that part of the tree last year, and were yelled at a lot.

Can you think of a curator that might be worth contacting who understands these issues? You may PM me, if this is easier.

I know Randy Schoenberg sometimes gets involved.

Private User has not been online in a while. I'll try contacting him.

Thank you. I know how to contact him, and will try and do this after a few days. Meanwhile, someone sent me PM a link to a Wikipedia article where this error seems to appear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bostanai
I would like to try and contact the author of that article.

It might be from here that it is copied to some private trees (whose links I was also sent). Or possibly the authors of the private trees might have a more historic "source", but obviously there was a misunderstanding down the line.

Moreover, someone has seemingly very recently created a new Wikipedia article:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKohen_family_(Geonim)
Using as "sources" the private tree quoted in the Bostanai article and the Geni tree that we are discussing now. His earlier source is:-
Isaac Halevy, Dorot ha-Rishonim, pp. 314, 315
Quoting from:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Isaac_Halevy_Rabinowitz
the author (1847-1914) thereof, we have:-
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Works
Isaac Halevy's major work was the Dorot Harishonim (Hebrew: דורות הראשונים: דברי הימים לבני ישראל‎), a six-volume religiously-oriented review of Jewish history, covering the span from the end of the Mishnaic period to the end of the geonic period. It is largely concerned with rebutting the account given by Jewish historians such as Solomon Judah Loeb Rapoport, Heinrich Graetz, Isaac Hirsch Weiss (author of Dor Dor ve-Doreshav), and the like. These works later formed the basis for Rabbi Avigdor Miller's writings on history, and more recently is heavily quoted and referenced in Codex Judaica: Chronological Index of Jewish History by Mattis Kantor[1].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Does anyone have the Dorot HaRishonim work, and can look this up?

There has been a bit of progress, which I want to update the "world".
On the discussion between the managers of the Geni profiles, someone helped me locate the Dorot HaRishonim volumes on line. The actual page link of the above is:-
https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20282&amp;st=&amp;pgn...
(and the page after).

The style of Hebrew does not make it easy reading, at least for myself, but one matter is very clear. He talks about the lines of succession with respect to the academies, but not every successor was the son of who was being succeeded. In some of the cases he mentions that "a" was a son or grandson or descendant of "b" but not in every case. So, for example:-

In Pumpedita, Rav Meri the kohen from N'har P'kod (The River P'kod) succeeded Rav Shmuel in year 4511 (in civil calendar this is either 751CE or 750CE depending on whether before or after Rosh HaShanna) and was head for eight years. At least not here, are we told who the father of Meri the kohen was, and obviously it was not Shmuel if he was not a kohen. He does mentions Shmuel's father as Meri, but this is obviously a different Meri who was not a kohen.

On these pages, he does not seem to get into the issue of Davidic lineage, but also I might have missed this. It is very likely he mentions this in other parts of his works.

His sources seem to be Raba"d, but am not sure whether it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_ben_David or one of the other rishonim (Rabbinic scholars who succeeded the ga'onim) who had this abbreviation as their pen-name. (See article there for further references) and Rasa"g pen-name abbreviation for Rav Sherira Gaon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherira_Gaon . He understood that Raba"d had errors that he would not have had, if he had access to the Rasa"g's writings.

I have already sent this response (slightly modified) to the managers of the profiles and also will try and reach out to those who are busy with the relevant Wikipedia articles that I previously mentioned, stating that their "source" does not give this information and the geni trees that they also reference, seem to be based on the same misconception.

Regards,
David

I have updated and added my own paragraph to:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKohen_family_(Geonim)
saying why this is not correct with respect to the primary source they give.
I will also try and enter some minor remarks on the Bostanai wiki.

To update everyone who is reading this, some of the profiles were unlocked and I was able to remove the kohen designation to anyone who was seen as a descendant of Bostenai along the paternal line. There is a profile which was still not unlocked when I did this last week, and there is documentation references that say he was a kohen. He, then obviously was not on the paternal line of Bostenai.

I found n article from JStor: , https://www.jstor.org/stable/1452602?read-now=1&amp;seq=2#page_scan...

The Jewish Quarterly Review Vol. 31, No. 2, Oct., 1940

JOURNAL ARTICLE
The Exilarchate in the Eastern Caliphate, 637-1258
Alexander D. Goode

which seems to give the history in plain English, but it is impossible to ascertain the accuracy with respect to other sources.

I will try and go through the relevant pages of this, and give a reference to this on geni profiles where I see this is appropriate, provided though I have edit access to that profile. Will see afterwards how relevant this is to the profiles that I mentioned here were problematic.

Most of these profiles are locked, and in any case I am finding it very difficult to follow the narrative from the article I mention in my previous message. I will mention here a few tidbits which I see on the tree, starting from the grandfather of Bostenai.

1) On last line of page 153 and start of page 154 we see Haninai son of Kafnai. On the tree, the father is rendered in English as Hofnai, and one would need to see the original Aramaic in Hebrew characters to know what the first letter of his name really was.

2) Bostanai was born to Haninai's widow, the daughter of Hananiah. (page 154). I just added: https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000143565488995
as the father of this widow. I also corrected the designation on the widows "name" according to this.

To be continued...

3) On page 155 we have the two sons of the Jewish born wife, and is rendered there as:-
a) Hisdai

Concerning Hisdai vs Hasdai - this is an issue of how the names would be vocalized - or would be written in "k'tiv maleh" in the original Aramaic (i.e is it ever spelled with a "yud" after the "chet" - am assuming that this is a "chet" but maybe someone more knowledgeable will tell me that this should be a "hey" ). On Geni tree, the name is rendered Hasdai in English characters. The son of the princess with the similar name is rendered on Geni as Hisdai. The article does not go into detail, but says that the line of succession was through his first Jewish wife.

b) Bar Adai
"Bar Adai" is Aramaic for "son of Adai" so Adai was the name of his mother. On the Geni tree, a full name is given.

Will add these notes when possible to the profiles.
I just authorized a merge, because apart from the "kohen" bit that I knocked off from the other profile of the merge, they seem to have the same data.
I also detached the Bostenai's first Jewish wife from her Muslim parents (at least that is what this seems from the names) in one of the profiles. I, left the second wife - the princess as this is - as this is well documented. Maybe these Muslim family members belong somehow to the princesses family.

We still have profile:-
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000041273497183
which needs to be corrected.
The following stand alone tree needs to be edited likewise.

3 cont) With the merge I just authorized, this does add another son Ananias as son of "Bar Adai". Do not know the source, but if this is not correct, then hopefully someone can knock this off.

4) On page 156 we have Hisdai (Hasdai on Geni tree) not leaving a heir and bar-Adai being first succeeded by sons Hanina and then Hasdei. I am unable to update these profiles with this source, but a lot of references already seem to be given for this profile. I only see on Geni the son Hananya- and not as mentioned on this reference.
At this stage, I need to stop, as it seems that somewhere, something is missing.

With respect to the kohanic familes of ga'onim, I have merged a couple of profiles, and a small tree can be seen at:-
https://www.geni.com/family-tree/index/6000000077166134129
This is of Hananya haKohen, who was son of Haninai haKohen

We should note that these ga'onim are not from the paternal Davidic line as they have tradition of kohanic descent according to the profiles that are presumably taken from historic sources.

The profile managers of these profiles (that I know about) have been notified.

David
,

I was presented a book list by someone on another smaller discussion that developed between a few people who I think also follow this forum. With permission, I am pasting the list here.

Otzar Hagedolim, Naftali Yaakov Hakohen
Igeret Rav Sherira Gaon, Weinstock;
Shmot Chachamim, Weis Avraham Meir;
Shnot Dor vDor, Shpitz;
Atlas Etz Chaim, Heilpern
Idan Hatalmud, Harpenes

Was told that these books might be found on Hebrewbooks.org. If not there, they might be on Otzar.org but it might cost.

Of course, there is also Dorot HaRishonim, and he often resolves conflicts that are found in earlier works. He especially likes to quote Igeret Rav Sherira Gaon, because he was part of that period, towards the end.

There might be more books.

I am not qualified to analyse all this, and so can only be involved in small changes that can be easily undone, if a contradiction needs to be resolved another fashion.

David

Just wanted to mention that the Wikipedia article that I mentioned above, and that is based on obviously incorrect information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKohen_family_(Geonim)
is in the "deletion" process.

It was explained to the author of the article that to have a paternal kohanic descendant that claims also to be a paternal davidic descendant is by definition an impossibility. There were no doubt maternal kohanic descendants, but this has no genealogical value with respect to "carrying the line" and so certainly has no value with respect to having a Wiki article. The author was convinced.

<<<maternal kohanic descendants>>> for example a female descendant marrying a man of kohanic descent.

I can appreciate the contradiction inherent in the line of Masliah ben Shlomo haKohen, Raʾis al-Yahūd al-Damasq, Gaon of Palestine being Kohanic and also considered to be a patrilineal descendant of Hananya "Bustenai" ben Haninai, Exilarch & Gaon of Pumbeditha (Davidic). It seems there are documents from the time of Masliah ben Shlomo describing their ten generations of ancestry (see: This Noble House by Arnold E. Franklin, p84) which would be up to Natronai Yosef "Mari" haKohen, Gaon of Sura & Jaen al-Andalus Could it be that the link paternal link from Natronai Yosef to Elazar ibn Shmuel al-Hurga, Alluf al-Andalus & Resh Kallah needs to be severed? This would detach what appears to be a clearly Kohanic line from Bustenai's Davidic line.

R' Shraga, Please review my last post when you have moment: Shraga F kahana, Rabbi
Is it possible that this Natronai Yosef "Mari" haKohen, Gaon of Sura & Jaen al-Andalus is somehow a member of the lineage of Rabbi Yakov ben Natronai HaKohen, Gaon of Sura Can you connect the dots between the two lineages?
Thanks in Advance

1) Yaakov ben Natronai hakohen was the Gaon of Sura from 911-924. HIs father, natronai ben Hilai was gaon Sura from 853-861. Hilai was Gaon Sura from 789-798. This is the same family line. Just as an aside, there was a different (but distantly related) Natronai who was the Gaon of Pumpedisa, don't recall the precise years.
2) All the above (including Natronai from Pumpedisa) are descended from Adda, the daughter of Bustenai, who married Bustenai's first cousin Chaninai ben Hunai hakohen. Thus, the family is a direct patrilineal descent from aharon hakohen, and direct patrilineal descent WITH ONE DAUGHTER IN THE LINE from King David.

I do not believe that "Natronai" "yosef" and "Mari" are all the same individual. Rav Shereira only uses rthe name "Natronai" here, though there were other geonim of sura named Mari (and if I recall correctly, Yosef as well). To the contrary, it was NOT the custom at the time for an individual to have more than one name (and perhaps a nickname).
Furthermore, there was very little overlap (though there was a small amount) in the families who served as geonim in sura and pumpedisa. If aharon ben yosef was a gaon in pumpedisa, I would look into the list of its geonim to see if a connection can be made.
b'hatzlacha,
Shraga

Many thanks Shraga F kahana, Rabbi Here is how to deal with this tangle in the least complicated way: this person: 1) Haninai al-Nehar Peḳkod ben Bustanai bar Adai, Exilarch & Gaon of Sura should be made the son-in-law rather than the son of Hananya "Bustenai" ben Haninai, Exilarch & Gaon of Pumbeditha keeping intact the Cohanic and Davidic lineages, 2) recognize that this person on your tree: Chaninai Achunai bar Hunai HaKohen is the same as this person: Haninai al-Nehar Peḳkod ben Bustanai bar Adai, Exilarch & Gaon of Sura, with the only difference being that instead of being the son of Bustenai he is the son-in-law (as shown in (1) above). The more or less conforms the two trees in this period until your tree arrives at Hilay ben Mari HaKohen who is the same as Hillel Yishai "Hilal" ben "Mari", Gaon of Sura the difference being that the latter is given several other offspring who you don't have on your tree (which is fine, I'm just making a note of it here because one of the sons you don't list: Mar Yitzhak Sadoq appears to have an important lineage in Andaluzia and elsewhere (including Ibn Shaprut) and this could be important for genealogists working with your tree). Phhhhew! I think that resolves this thread, no?

Although I am no way qualified to follow this through, one matter does need to be taken into account, and that titles of lineage are strictly paternal. So one can only be call "haKohen" if ones father is a kohen. One can only say that one is a "descendant of the House of David" (in a formal sence) if ones father was.

In Jewish tradition, the former earns priviledges and generates responsibilies even till today. The latter is "nice to have", and I doubt that our ancestors among the gaonim would give himself such a title if his mother was born of this lineage but not his father.

Now read carefully one of the recent posts concerning this, what I answered in my previous post today was this:-
<<<
and direct patrilineal descent WITH ONE DAUGHTER IN THE LINE from King David.
>>>
Even one daughter in the line is going to break the Davidic lineage with respect to a formal yechus - and it is the formal yechus which is important in Jewish tradition. (There are, though, no current halachic ramifications - but if someone declares that he is "Mashiach ben David" and does what is expected of Mashiach ben David with respect to his political obligations - but his lineage definitley includes a daughter - then his declaration of status will need to be deamed false.)

I believe what this thread is about is since a Jewish male cannot be a son to son descendant of both Aharon and David, there has tbe something wrong with the son to son pedigree between Bustenai and Elazar ibn Shmul al Hurga. Making the pedigree pass through a daughter of Bustenai and her Cohanic mate retains the Cohanic lyikus for the branch while removing the Davidic. It is not required for a Gaon to be from the House of David so the initial issue presented in the thread is remedied. Now, the question becomes, is there any citable evidence for the contention that Bustenai had a daughter who married a Cohen, and if so, was this daughter's mother the Persian princess or the Jewish wife?