Agatha - Cleanup needed in the About section

Started by Private User on Wednesday, December 4, 2019
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Private User
12/4/2019 at 9:05 PM

Messy tangled discussion left over from editing wars by rabid pro-Hungarian partisans who insisted that she WAS SO the daughter of King/Saint Stephen, in the teeth of existing evidence that he left no surviving children at all.

And if she *was* his daughter, why was Andras' claim preferred over hers?

The "official website of the British Monarchy" has deep-sixed the Stephen theory and barely mentions Agatha at all. They went for flash and jazz and superficial impressions over detailed information - so they are no longer a worthwhile source.

Stewart Baldwin's dissertation on Agatha, under his "Henry Project" http://sbaldw.home.mindspring.com/hproject/prov/agath000.htm is still the most in-depth treatment of the subject.

Private User
12/5/2019 at 3:57 AM

Why isn't this the only theory?

"Eduard Hlawitschka also identifies Agatha as a daughter of Yaroslav, pointing out that Adam of Bremen,[14] who was well-informed on North-European affairs noted around 1074 that Edward was exiled in Russia (E[d]mund, vir bellicosus, in gratiam victoris sublatus est; filii eius in Ruzziam exilio dampnati)[14] and that the author of Leges Edwardi confessoris, who had strong ties with Agatha's children, Queen Margaret of Scotland and her sister Cristina, and could thus reasonably be expected to be aware of their descent, recorded around 1120 that Edward went to the land of the Rus and that there he married a noble woman."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_(wife_of_Edward_the_Exile)#Kie...

Private User
12/5/2019 at 5:22 AM

Why Yaroslav isn't the only answer?

Mostly because several *other* early sources insisted that she was closely related to the Emperor of Germany (John/Florence of Worcester went so far as to explicitly identify said Emperor as Heinrich III, and state that she was the daughter of one of his close male relatives, which is chronologically possible).

People who support *this* theory generally go for the Emperor's half-brother Liudolf, who isn't an ideal fit but at least is known to have married and had sons.

The biggest argument *against* Yaroslav as her father is, ironically, another of his daughters, Anna, who became the second wife of the king of *France* (Henri I Capet), and there is absolutely *no* mention of such an important connection in any of the period sources. Even those chroniclers who were most clueless about everything east of Germany (one may well suspect certain ones, e.g. Orderic Vitalis, of not knowing the difference between Hungary and Russia) should have been at least minimally aware of goings-on in France.

The other proposed alternatives (see Baldwin discussion) have even bigger flaws.

.

Private User
12/5/2019 at 11:39 AM

Anne's name appears on twenty-nine royal charters, seven issued during Henry's reign and twenty-two during that of Philip I.[11] After Henry's death, Count Baudouin of Flanders was assigned to be Philip's guardian, as he was not yet eight years old.[3] Anne may still have played an active role in government at that point; an act from 1060 shows her name following Philip's, and her name appears in four times as many charters as Baudouin's.[3] She also hired Philip's tutor, who was known at court by a Greek title.[3]

Anne's only existing signature dates from this period, inscribed on a document issued at Soissons for the abbot of Saint Crepin le Grand [de], now held in the National Library of Russia. Under the symbol of the king, Anne added a cross and 8 letters in Cyrillic, probably the words for "Anna Reina."[3] Evidence for Anne's role in government, however, disappears in 1061, around the time of her second marriage.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Kiev#Regency

Private User
12/5/2019 at 11:48 AM

Anastasia of Kiev (c. 1023 – 1074/1096) was Queen of Hungary by marriage to King Andrew the White. She was the eldest daughter of Grand Prince Yaroslav I the Wise of Kiev and Ingigerd of Sweden, and the older sister of Anne of Kiev, Queen consort of Henry I of France.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastasia_of_Kiev

"Ailred of Rievaulx describe Agatha as a kinswoman of an "Emperor Henry", "

"in De Gestis Regis Anglorum states that Agatha's sister was a Queen of Hungary (reginae sororem) and is echoed in this by Alberic of Trois-Fontaine"

You actually don't see it.

Private User
12/5/2019 at 12:35 PM

Meh, I'm playing devil's advocate. One has to at least *try* to keep an open mind and present all the available facts (Baldwin does an excellent job of this).

Private User
12/5/2019 at 12:41 PM

Strictly speaking, if Agatha was one of Yaroslav's daughters, she was sister to *three* queens: the Queen of France (Anna), the Queen of Hungary (Anastasia), and the Queen of Norway (Elisabeta/Ellisif).

It would fit his existing pattern if Yaroslav had tried to pair off a fourth daughter with Edward the Exile...but he underestimated the ruthlessness of the Godwins (so did everyone else including Edward the Confessor).

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