Thomas Fenner, of Crawley - John Fenner of Crawley was the father of Edward Fenner

Why are all the names changed? I reverted them back to original values.

Private I see you had worked on the Goring family. Can I ask you to have a look here?

Where is here?

Never mind, I see the link. Slow...

So, the current Fenner tree appears to be a copy of an Ancestry tree. The birth and death dates are in dispute by genealogists. Also in dispute is the Fenner-Wodye visitation of Sussex.

It appears someone tried to correct the Fenner tree, but without success, due to the failure filling in a gap. The difficulty is a missing John Fenner the younger, the son of John Fenner the elder and the father of Edward and Thomas. Thus the gap between when John the elder died in 1511 and Edward was born in 1538. the second John was six when his father died, so born about 1505.

However, my old English script reading sucks, so I'm going to attach John Fenner the elder's will and the disputed visitation of the Fenner-Wodye to John Fenner's profile. Maybe someone who can read old English script can sort this out better than I can.

I had worked from History of Parliament, which identified Capt. Thomas Fenner as brother of Sir Edward Fenner, MP

The Thomas article is somewhat obscure & doesn’t identify a mother.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/fe...

Visitations of Sussex (missing a generation?)

https://media.geni.com/p13/26/87/6e/45/5344484f31f33172/fenner_-_wo...

The will:

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000108541981046&

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000108541981048&

Family and Education
s. of John Fenner of Crawley by Eleanor, da. of John Goring of Burton, Suss.; bro. of Thomas. educ. New Inn; M. Temple 1557, called. m., 3s. 5da. Kntd. 1603.

Offices Held
Bencher and Autumn reader M. Temple 1576; serjeant-at-law Nov. 1577; justice, Queen’s bench 1590.1

J.p.q. Surr., Suss. from c.1579.

http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/fe...

Biography
Fenner’s family had held property in Crawley, Ifield and Worth, Sussex, early in the sixteenth century, one branch establishing itself at Wittering and Earnley, near Chichester. Fenner presumably owed his return to Parliament in 1571 jointly to his cousin, George Goring I and his nephew, John Shurley I of Lewes. His constituency in 1572 was the home of his brother Thomas.

The above is for Edward Fenner, the judge, son of Eleanor Goring and John Fenner of Crawley.

It looks like besides the issue of John the elder & John the younger, we were missing a generation of Thomas. I added

Sir Thomas Fenner of Crawley &
Anne ‘Joane’ Culpeper as parents of Sir John ‘the elder’ Fenner, of Crawley
and son of Thomas Fenner, of Crawley & Elizabeth Anne Fenner.

The Visitation is here: https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000108541981042&

The insert page mentioned is here.

https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou5354beno/page/n125

... Fenner (no wife listed) father of

1. .... Fenner the Judge
2. Thomas Fenner of Shoram m Mary Bellingham

—-

So who was ... Fenner?

Fenner the Judge is Sir Edward.

That I figured out; the question was - is ... Fenner = John Fenner, and if so, younger or elder?

We also have a confusion of Mary Bellinghams.

https://sites.google.com/site/fivegateways/alphabetical-index-b/bel...

*L1. John Bellingham, of Erringham, m. Anne Hill, daughter of the Lady Mason; she m. 2ndly Jo. Lewkner.
**M6. Mary Bellingham, wife of Thomas Fenner, sonne of the Judge.
***N1. Anne Fenner.

And there was also

*K1. *by 3* Edward Bellingham, of New Timber, in Sussex, m. 1stly Barbara, daughter of Edward Banester, of Yessworth, co. Southampton; m. 2ndly Elizabeth, daughter of John Wood, of Hamsey, Sussex.
**L4. *by 1* Mary Bellingham, wife of Capt. Thomas Fenner, of Shoreham, in Sussex

https://www.fennertree.com/thomas-fenner-1540-1601 Solves it by leaving the Mary wife of Thomas Fenner (d 1601) unidentified.

Of course it looks like the children attached to Capt. Thomas Fenner belong to the “other” New Shoreham Thomas Fenner.

If you can read John Fenner's will, better than I can, you might answer the question of who is whom?

Lots of sources disputing the validity of the Visitation to Surrey, Fenner-Wodye.

There are two contemporary Thomas Fenners, one Thomas Fenner, of New Shoreham, the other Captain Thomas Fenner, Naval Officer. Both married a Bellingham daughter. The new shoreham Thomas Fenner married Mary, the daughter of John Bellingham. Capt Fenner married a daughter of Edward Bellingham.

Not certain they were related, but they were not father and son.

Right now Thomas Fenner of New Shoreham is married to the wife of Captain Thomas Fenner. Would have been helpful if they had more imagination in naming their kids.

What makes you think I can read that will? :)

I’m going to disconnect Capt Thomas Fenner from the Geni Fenner tree & make a new Thomas Fenner M.P. (Brother of Sir Edward).

Any chance Capt Fenner is a son of Sir Edward ?

So now the question (from me) is

Is John Bellingham, of Erringham & Hartingham the same as John Bellingham, of Erringham & Hartingham

The first profile lists daughter Mary as born about 1568.

Answering myself about Sir Edward: He had one son, Edward, who died without issue in 1615.

Here’s the new Thomas Fenner, MP & his wife Mary Fenner

You have been in Geni since forever, working on colonial Americans of English descent. Of course you can read old English scribble.

Dream on. You know we need to tag Private User for those wills.

—-

I can puzzle over property maybe.

¶The manor of BONWICKS was held of Ifield in 1566. (fn. 52) A Walter of Bonwick owned land possibly in Ifield in the 13th century, (fn. 53) and a yardland, 46 a., and rents in Ifield were settled on John Bonwick in 1381-2. (fn. 54) The 110 a. of land together with rents in Ifield settled on Thomas Fenner in 1506-7 (fn. 55) may have been the same, since John Fenner died seised of Bonwicks c. 1513. John's estate, subject to the life interest of his daughter-in-law Anne, then the wife of Thomas Culpeper, descended to his grandson John, (fn. 56) presumably the John Fenner who died seised of Bonwicks manor, then first so called, and 320 a. in Ifield and Rusper in 1566, leaving as heir his son Dudley. (fn. 57) Thomas Gage was said to be lord in 1579. (fn. 58)

A P Baggs, C R J Currie, C R Elrington, S M Keeling and A M Rowland, 'Ifield: Manors and other estates', in A History of the County of Sussex: Volume 6 Part 3, Bramber Rape (North-Eastern Part) Including Crawley New Town, ed. T P Hudson (London, 1987), pp. 60-63. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/sussex/vol6/pt3/pp60-63 [accessed 3 October 2019].

So where is Anne, who married Thomas Fenner of Crawley, son John Fenner b say 1509 & also Thomas Culpeper of Crawley?

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~lewgriffin/family/g0/p272.htm#i8697

Ref: Col. F.W.T. Attree R.E./F.S.A. & Rev. J.H.L. Booker M.A., "The Sussex Colepepers, Part II", Sussex Archaeological Collections, XLVIII,65-98, (1905)

Here she is.

Anne ‘Joane’ Culpeper

How this reconciles with Visitations ...

Well, this is fun. It looks like Anne’s grandson Dudley Fenner, Puritan divine

Was a Puritan Divine.

https://theodora.com/encyclopedia/f/dudley_fenner.html

Do you need me?

The will of John Fenner 1511. From what I can read, it lists Johanne and Elizabeth as grandchildren, Thomas Fenner as a son, and a John Fenner the elder and John Fenner the younger, who appear to be brothers. However, my old English script reading sucks, so it may say something else entirely. Erica and I are trying to assist Emily Voltz in unraveling this.

It is in the about section of:

Sir John ‘the elder’ Fenner, of Crawley

And at this ancestry link

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/5111/40611_311116-00310?pid=85...

I’m not certain about John ‘the younger’ Fenner, MP as father of Dudley Fenner, Puritan divine. Need more opinions / sources.

HOP says another candidate for Dudley’s father is Sir Edward the Judge, who did have more children than his heir Edward d 1615; but there isn’t a property note jumping out.