Boniface I, Marquess of Montferrat (leader of the Fourth Crusade) - total locked

Started by Livio Scremin on Sunday, September 1, 2019
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Showing 1-30 of 46 posts
9/1/2019 at 8:36 AM

Hi,
I working around, but can't even past the link of "Medlands project"
PLZ unlock

- http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONFERRATO,%20SALUZZO,%20SAVONA.htm...

9/1/2019 at 1:36 PM
9/23/2019 at 10:48 AM

ZZZ....zzzz....ZzZzz.... XD

Private User
9/28/2019 at 2:11 AM

I'm sorry, Livio (I should have had my coffee first). I take it you would just like to make a correction to the title and name, for consistency of standardization.

Private User
9/28/2019 at 2:13 AM

Presenting a draft or model profile for inspection and approval is a great idea.

9/28/2019 at 7:32 AM

;D yes but in reality I have not finished here yet, this big Italian is too strong to put in 2 lines :D

I was thinking of writing exactly the same thing, but as a "display name" cover
(in the 2 family languages & for sure international English)

Private User
9/28/2019 at 8:33 AM

https://archive.org/details/leepistoledeltr01nocegoog/page/n8

The epistles of the troubadour Rambaldo di Vaqueiras to the Marquis Bonifazio I of Monferrato

Le epistole del trovatore Rambaldo di Vaqueiras al marchese Bonifazio I di Monferrato

(When I try to be helpful, sometimes I find interesting things -- especially books. :) )

Private User
9/28/2019 at 8:42 AM

http://www.rialto.unina.it/RbVaq/392.7(Saviotti).htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raimbaut_de_Vaqueiras

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambaldo_di_Vaqueiras

I learned something, and I love his poetry. I think we need a Geni profile for this very close friend of the Marquess of Montferrat.

9/28/2019 at 11:39 AM

sure create he!
although that he will not be connected to the big tree
(I don't seem to understand they were lovers) and not even a slave to that dedication that linked [Dante Alighieri Dante ] to [Beatrice Bardi, Bice Beatrice] as a boyfriend (for his part).

...we can link he in the INFO ABOUT of marquis & his sister Beatrice Aleramici, del Monferrato

* https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_del_Monferrato (ITA only)

Private User
9/28/2019 at 12:34 PM

I don't know anything about them being lovers; I thought they were just very good friends. Bonafacio was Rambaldo's benefactor, presumably because one was wealthy and the other had musical talent and was brave in battle.

But it doesn't really matter to me, I just enjoy the history and the troubador's poetry. Boniface had several children with his wives. I doubt anything is known about Raimbaut's family.

Linking him to the appropriate profiles would be a good start. I think he deserves recognition as a historical and literary figure.

9/28/2019 at 2:29 PM

misunderstanding heheeh, friend of the marquis looked at his sister from the window and wrote about her :D the castle is small and people have long eyes XD

I thought you had read everything :D on her Wiki page you will find the sonnets written by the same author you like, but only Italian XD

Private User
9/28/2019 at 3:30 PM

Oops, my mistake. (I realized it later, after reading some more about di Vaqueiras' life and some lyrics he'd dedicated to Beatrice. I should have known sooner, because I wondered why you mentioned also linking him on her profile.)

Nevertheless I'm sure the troubador was a very nice man and a wonderful musician, but they would always, always flirt with the wealthy ladies in order to win their patronage (invitations to their parties, free food and lodging, etc.).

Furthermore, of course she was married to a nobleman. And Rambaldo was at least 10 years younger (b. 1165). I'm sure they were fond of one another, but I doubt that it was anything very serious.

Apparently he died the same year as Bonifazio, 1207. So now I suspect he died alongside his friend, in battle.

9/28/2019 at 3:39 PM

hey hey stop ok:
if you find something that speaks of the two of them as lovers, we put them ex-partners, I from the two sonnets I read, I only understood that he was looking at her.
If you are passionate about reading it I suggest you create the profile and then do cut paste of what you find relevant to support this thesis.
You will have all my support :)

 

Private User
9/29/2019 at 7:10 AM

The link to Beatrice's Italian Wiki page is very good, thank you. I'm afraid I'm terribly slow these days. I took your advice, and created a profile for dear Rambaldo. Thank you very much for the kindly encouragement and helpful suggestions, without which it might never have happened.

By the way, I agree with your suggested edit to Bonifacio I's profile, and I hope that it gets the change you are asking for. Your passion for genealogy is very inspiring, Livio.

9/29/2019 at 7:22 AM

well, post he here and with 2 lines on the ABOUTs of brother-sister Monferrato, so I ask you the ADMN, and we will work together if needed

Private User
9/29/2019 at 8:24 AM

Raimbaut de Vaqueiras

Thank you, I was going to but thought I'd wait and see if you wanted it, first.

9/29/2019 at 9:41 AM

I changed my mind again about the marquis:
being "a" leader(not the only one) of the 4th crusade would be important to include visible in the suffix, but not to hide that he was the 1st founding king of something, nor that all his deeds are told as marquis .. so, for the moment i'm thinking about leaving it such info at "work filed" {[(PLZ well accepted any opinions)]}
--------
about Raimbaut de Vaqueiras I did my magic, happy? :D
I have seen that Erica Howton is also observing.. so I ask:

the temporal space for having loved ones, there was (to Beatrice several war husbands died).

her wiki ITA only says that Rambaldo was in love with her, how much? (because in Italy there is another case of 2 neighbors registered as fiancés after all that he has dedicated to she in literature even if there has never been any contact)

9/29/2019 at 1:47 PM

I would create a link to Beatrice & Boniface in Raimbaut’s “about” (and perhaps Vice versa) but not a family link.

I don’t know enough, but so far I see as “lowly troubadour” yearning for the Great Lady, who is out of reach.

Also, this is a poetic convention: courtly love. In reality? He had the local bordello & the farmer’s daughter .... (runs away)

Private User
9/29/2019 at 1:53 PM

Hello Livio, I agree with your logic concerning Bonifazio's titles, it sounds reasonable enough and I don't see anything wrong with the way you present it here. Sorting it all out is a rather complicated problem, so I'm glad you're handling it. You know far more about such things than I do. And it's wonderful that you are working so diligently to get it 'just right'. You are a perfectionist, :)

I also like the new profile picture, it's very appropriate and I think I recognize it from the Wiki article, so it's consistent. Is it a depiction of Rambaldo, himself? If so, it is especially nice.

Regarding the affair between Rambaldo and Beatrice, I don't doubt that they cared deeply for one another, flirted outrageously, and were very affectionate toward one another. I'm sure they were tempted and possibly even gave in to temptation at times.

However, their "jealous" and "slanderous" society (quoting Rambaldo) must have frowned darkly on any serious relationship between them (such as an engagement or marriage). And they were secretive about it, with him slyly watching her through the window, meeting her in her bedchamber, pretending that it wasn't at all physical, and not discussing their feelings openly with her family. Her brother even tried at least once, to catch them doing wrong. And that's how she got her nickname, "the Beautiful Knight".

I think that profile relationships (of that very formal and conservative era, especially) should be reserved for serious engagements that could be made public and would actually lead to real marriage. As much as it might seem charitable to join them, I think it is inappropriate in this case.

Beatrice was the granddaughter of https://www.geni.com/people/Henry-IV-Holy-Roman-Emperor, so she was "high nobility", practically a royal. Whereas, Raimbaut de Vaqueiras was possibly lower nobility, at best. It's highly unlikely that their society would have approved of their relationship, because for them love really had very little to do with their marriages. In fact, medieval lovers were sometimes killed for dishonoring the family, sadly. Even as a thrice widowed adult matron, she would have needed approval from the correct authorities (family, church, etc.) in order to marry anyone.

However, they seem to have gotten along just fine anyway.

Today I ran across these Folkways Media Liner Notes from one of their records, which I found quite educational and fun reading.

"Unlike the northern French jongleurs, who were professional singers of the chansons de geste, the Provencial troubadours were mostly men of noble or semi-noble birth, who delighted in singing the praises of fair ladies, many of them married to other men. The nature of the love affairs they describe is such that frequently the identity of the lady to whom the poem is directed has to be concealed. This in turn leads to a style which is often obscure and strange, but which met with great favor in Italy, Portugal, and even in northern France, where it had to face the competition of the native epic."

So we can see that although Raimbaut may have been noble and mannerly enough for court (thus part of the attraction), and even that some closer members of Beatrice's family might have been tolerant of their love affair -- the divisions between higher and lower nobility would have prevented any socially approved union.

They would have expected her to marry a man of respectable means, which Raimbaut was not, as the son of a "poor knight". And I do not exaggerate when I tell you that I have researched it already, and practically every medieval troubadour was considered "scurra" (literally, scum) by 'proper society', because they lived like "parasites" (quote) selling their songs and musical talent in exchange for food and lodging wherever they could get it. They would deliberately sing to win the hearts of the ladies, in order to make themselves recipients of their charity and other favors.

So yes, many of the ladies and some of the itinerant troubadours (or "wandering minstrels") actually did fall in love and/or conduct affairs. But they very rarely if ever got engaged or married one another, unless of the same social class (one troubadour was a king, Theobald I of Navarra -- but it was only a hobby for him, not his main occupation :D ).

So I would only make note of the friendship between them in the About section, and not try to add it to her Relationships.

https://folkways-media.si.edu/liner_notes/folkways/FW09578.pdf?fbcl...

PS: Thank you for correcting Rambaldo's name displays and adding the Italian language translation. I knew you would make it right.

Private User
9/29/2019 at 1:57 PM

Erica Howton :D

Meanwhile, their links are already in Rambaldo's About section. But a link to Rambaldo's should probably be added to their About section, due to the prominent place he held in their lives (a favored servant; almost, but not quite, family).

9/29/2019 at 2:02 PM

Ironically, isn’t it Rambaldo’s surviving music that gives Beatrix her place in history?

Private User
9/29/2019 at 2:22 PM

He really was a genius. Must have been a very nice man, too.

9/29/2019 at 2:41 PM

ehheeh irony of fate! I was thinking about that episode of the "Bel Cavalier" <<in which she waited in skimpy clothes, her suitor in the room, but her brother came in to check her, but the author watched from the window....>> you who have read everything, if for his suitor, author was intended?
.. but there is no hurry
anyway, even here, I tidied up the relationships
(for wider reasons)* and I can report that the option that remains for a possible connection to the BIG TREE (if and when someone wants to connect it would be position 3)
________________
*I cleaned her last husband's line Alberto Malaspina, il Moro with @Erica's assistance until the 950.
Then I cleaned the top part. & now there is the possibility of joining them :)
DISCUSSION *Marquis Oberto I Obizzo, count of Luni

Private User
10/3/2019 at 6:07 PM

BONIFAZIO I Marchese di Monferrato

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MONFERRATO,%20SALUZZO,%20SAVONA.ht...

Did you see this, Mr. Scremin? It seems more authentic, to me.

10/3/2019 at 6:48 PM

XD check the first line of discussion: direct link to he ;P
..but TNX for your interest! :D
since you are giving me an opinion on the suffix, king?, leader? or both?
final draft >>> Boniface I, marquess of Montferrat, 1st king of Thessalonica

Private User
10/3/2019 at 8:17 PM

I apologize (I saw it only after posting). I was just curious why you don't spell it the way it was originally. Your spelling is more modernized. But maybe that's how it's done here, I don't know.

Suffix. 1st king of Thessalonica seems appropriate to me. Of course I'm laughing because I really don't know. But what else could it be. Did you try this already?:

Boniface I, marquess of Montferrat, 1st king of Thessalonica (leader of the Fourth Crusade)

While you think about it, I'll be sleeping, :)

10/3/2019 at 8:33 PM

I had tried the correct temporal sequence: marquis, leader*, king ... but it becomes too long

(thanks to the Crusader expedition he took everything during the journey and self proclaimed king without even arriving in Jerusalem)XD

keep in mind that I have to respect the 900's dynastic line of the "Aleramici" that you Anglo-Saxons have always ignored :D
Just now, I think I found the right balance between respecting the fields and the display name for he ;D

10/3/2019 at 10:01 PM

If I may just comment.

“leader of the Fourth Crusade” is not a title. It’s an identification that helps us place his historical importance.

We have “add a field” now in the basics tab. I would be tempted to try using it.

Label = Notability (or Notable for, Notable as)
Text box = Leader of the 4th Crusade

It shows in google, and of course you can add the label in any language.

It won’t show in tree view, but you don’t really need it for genealogy.

Showing 1-30 of 46 posts

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