Robert III, comte de Wormsgau - Inconsistencies

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Robertian-7

Wikipedia's stub (17 Nov 2015), claims that Robert III of Worms, is the son of Robert II.[1] But according to Cawley's (2006) research, there's no contemporary source to support this.[2] However, Cawley (2006), contradicts this in his research for Wiltrud, wife of Robert III.[3]

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SWABIAN%20NOBILITY.htm#_ftnref592

Adrianus & his wife had two children:

ii) WILTRUD . The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. "Wialdruth et Guntram" donated property "in Buosinesheim" to Kloster Lorsch for the soul of "Rutperti comitis quondam viri mei" by charter dated 19 Feb 834[784]. m ([808]%29 ROBERT [III] Graf im Wormsgau, son of --- (-before 19 Feb 834). "Karolus…augustus…imperator Romanum…rex Francorum et Langobardorum" issued a judgment by charter dated 8 Mar 812 which names "fidelibus nostri: Gerulfus, Guntlandus, Hedo, Armannus, Hamricus, Sicardus, Rotbertus comitibus…Amalricus comiti palatii nostro"[785].

[785] DD Kar. 1, 216, p. 288.

Found a couple of references here:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/b57ESRNf0BU/m/...

"Lorsch und Lothringen, Robertiner und Capetinger" by K Gloeckner in

• Zeitschrift fur die Geschichte des Oberrheins* 1936/37 vol.89, 301-354

_Préhistoire des Capétiens_, 159-61. (Settipani)

Description of dynasty with references - this is not in the profiles currently, I don’t think:

https://de-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Robertiner?_x_tr_sl=...

Re: Thank you all for your prompt response. Now Im confused? so do we rely upon Wikipedia as a viable, confident and reliable source when wishing to seek information or do we not?.

We do not. It’s an excellent beginning place, but the references need to be scrutinized and interpreted.

For the Middle Ages, genealogists are turning to FMG Medlands (Cawley, editor). He cites primary sources wherever possible. So the links between the Wormsgau Roberts were removed not because proven wrong, but because so far, cannot be proven; that is, no primary sources survive to affirm or deny. And additionally, earlier genealogical constructions are not holding up.

Settipani is a scholar considered an expert in this area, so I’ve been looking to see if we can find his comments on the dynasty (or not! a dynasty).

And I’m reading the article by Stewart Baldwin on a proposed son, Robert le Fort:

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober100.htm

And apparently there is a good case for Robert lll as father of Robert le Fort.

From the Henry Project:

Theories about the origin of Robert le Fort

Contemporary writers did not offer the parentage of Robert le Fort. Nevertheless, as would be expected for the ancestor of a family that gained such prominence, a number of theories have been advanced regarding his parentage. By the eighteenth century, there were no less than five hypotheses on the ancestry of Robert, as reported in the third edition of Anselme's monumental work [Anselme, 1: 65-7]. …

These theories can be contrasted with the scholarship of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, which often went in quite different directions. The candidates for the father of Robert suggested in these more modern works show very little overlap with the earlier theories. …

Robert, count in Wormsgau. Proposed in 1936 by Glöckner, this scenario has been widely followed by others since that time.

——

I could see enough of Settipani’s article to believe he relies on Glöckner, so let’s see if we can find that.

Also take due notice - at least 10 different proposed origins for a Robert le Fort. :)

Baldwin concludes Re: Robert lll parents:

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober100.htm

While onomastics and geography present us with a plausible enough case that Robert (husband of Waldrade) was of the same family as the earlier Robert (husband of Williswinte), there does not appear to be any solid evidence for the parentage of Waldrade's husband.

Hmm. This is looking like Settipani has Waldrade (Wiltrud) & Robert, count in Wormsgau, as Robert le Fort’s parents. And very recent scholarship - more recent than Cawley, I think.

La noblesse du Midi carolingien: études sur quelques grandes familles d'Acquitaine et du Languedoc du IXe au XIe siècle, Toulousain, Périgord, Limousin, Poitou, Auvergne. Christian Settipani. Occasional Publications UPR, 2004 -

Page 196 < GoogleBooks >

Sharon Doubell - do take a look at the Settipani chart.

Wiltrud is missing a number of siblings according to this.

La noblesse du Midi carolingien: études sur quelques grandes familles d'Acquitaine et du Languedoc du IXe au XIe siècle, Toulousain, Périgord, Limousin, Poitou, Auvergne. Christian Settipani. Occasional Publications UPR, 2004 -

Page 196

https://books.google.com/books?id=1tho6B1mUGMC&printsec=frontcover#...

Tagging Robert IV "the Strong", Margrave of Neustria

Can we find links to read the references:

Sources

Bouchard, Constance Brittain (2015). Rewriting Saints and Ancestors: Memory and Forgetting in France, 500-1200. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 9780812290080.
Settipani, Christian, Les Ancêtres de Charlemagne, 2e édition revue et corrigée, éd. P & G, Prosopographia et Genealogica, 2015
Settipani, Christian. Addenda aux "Ancêtres de Charlemagne, 1990
Riché, Pierre, The Carolingians: a family who forged Europe

Cannot gain enough access through GoogleBooks snippet view to understand what Bouchard or Settipani (2015) have to say.

Looking at Settipani (1990) I see:

http://sites.rootsweb.com/~medieval/addcharlENG.pdf

(Chart on page 4)

Robert, count of Hesbaye > Thurinbert > Robert - - - > The Capetians

On page 8:

A genealogy of this length, especially through women, is rather remarkable for this time. This provides a measure of the glory of duke Godefred (687-708/9) and the glory which the queen Hildegarde derived as his issue. What is still more interesting is that other sources conveniently complete this genealogy. Emma, mother of Hildegarde is well known as the wife of the count Gerold. Among her children, we know Gerold, prefect of Bavaria, Megingoz, Odalric, Odon, and Hadrian (maternal grandfather of Robert the Strong)23.

23 On the family of Gerold, see the works of J. Siegwart (1958) ; M. Mitterauer (1963) ; M. Göckel (1970) ; M. Borgolte (1986)

Here’s Cawley on ROBERT "le Fort", son of --- ([815/30]

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm#_Toc451504273

Four more specific suggestions about Robert´s paternal ancestry have been made:

· Firstly, many modern secondary sources identify him as Robert [Rodbert], son of Rodbert Graf im Wormsgau & his wife Wiltrud ---, who was first named in Germany in 836 as "son of the late Rodbert Graf von Wormsgau", in a donation to Mettenheim[10]. No primary source has yet been found which points specifically towards this suggested co-identity, although it is consistent with the Franconian origin referred to by the Annales Xantenses and by Widukind, as noted above. The suggestion is presumably based mainly on onomastics, although the first secondary source which proposed the connection has not yet been identified meaning that this point has not been checked. …

Miriam Czock: Review of: Constance Brittain Bouchard: Rewriting Saints and Ancestors. Memory and Forgetting in France, 500-1200, Philadelphia, PA: University of Pennsylvania Press 2015, in: seepunkte 15 (2015), No. 9 [09/15/2015], URL: http://www.sehepunkte.de
/2015 /09/26158.html retrieved 27 July 2022.

(helpful as a description of the source but not specific to this dynasty, or not! dynasty)

https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~mainegenie/genealogy/CAPET.htm for the Robertian dynasty, with primary source citations.

Looking again at the argument for Robert lll as son of Robert ll, I think it comes down to one charter:

Robert was the Count of Worms and Rheingau. His neice Ermengard, was the wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious, his cousin Chrondogang was Archbishop of Metz and Abbot of Lorsch Abbey, and his uncle was Count Cancor, founder of Lorsch Abbey.

"Karolus…augustus…imperator Romanum…rex Francorum et Langobardorum" issued a judgment by charter dated 8 Mar 812 which names "fidelibus nostri: Gerulfus, Guntlandus, Hedo, Armannus, Hamricus, Sicardus, Rotbertus comitibus…Amalricus comiti palatii nostro"(1). Graf im Wormsgau. The Commemoratio Missis Data dated 825 [before Nov] names "…in Mogontia…Heistulfus episcopus et Ruodbertus comes…"(2). "Wialdruth et Guntram" donated property "in Buosinesheim" for the soul of "Rutperti comitis quondam viri mei" by charter dated 19 Feb 834(3).

—-

So we don’t know directly that Robert lll’s father was Robert ll, but his uncle is identified as Count Cancor.

Do I understand correctly?

Was able to extract and upload:

Rewriting Saints and Ancestors: Memory and Forgetting in France, 500-1200 By Constance Brittain Bouchard. University of Pennsylvania Press, Aug 14, 2014. Page 185 - 192. “The Robertians.” < GoogleBooks >

https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000186174770141

I'll try and have a read tonight.

So, no real primary evidence to link them above..?

The one in https://www.geni.com/discussions/189812?msg=1576064

Erica, re https://www.geni.com/discussions/189812?msg=1576060 - this is about whether ROBERT [Rodbert] . Robert "Rodbert" von Wormsgau is the same same person as…? ROBERT "le Fort" ([815/30]-killed in battle Brissarthe 2 Jul 866).

Am I just not sufficiently focussed to be seeing how this is primary evidence about the father of Robert III, comte de Wormsgau

Re Robert was the Count of Worms and Rheingau. His neice Ermengard, was the wife of the Frankish emperor Louis the Pious, his cousin Chrondogang was Archbishop of Metz and Abbot of Lorsch Abbey, and his uncle was Count Cancor, founder of Lorsch Abbey.

• Without knowing Robert III's father or siblings, we cannot know who his neice, cousin or uncle were. So, as proof of his father, however it would be , this would involve circular reasoning anyway.
• His wife's neice, Ermentrudis/Ermengarde was the wife of Charles II, not of Louis the Pious (Charles' father) - but I don't understand what that proves about her uncle's father?

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. It is interesting.

I have to put my head back on this, so bear with me, before I can get to the specific question about Robert lll’s niece. I was looking at Count Cancor, founder of Lorsch Abbey.

The scope to me is the question, what is the ancestry of Robert le Fort, and how do we best represent that on Geni?

And forgive me, but I’m thinking that we can do a little better in showing this than Cawley’s research compilation. I don’t disagree with his findings, I just think we can take it next level.

First, the primary evidence is roundabout in charters, especially the ones from Lorsch Abbey, not all of which have been published, apparently: and not accessible to me regardless. So I am relying on reports from scholars in the field, especially Christian Settipani, in snippets.

For me, https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000186174770141 helped with the political picture. And if I read it correctly (always a question), she’s not outright concluding the Wormsgau ancestry is correct. Her point is that Robert le Fort’s origins were not memorialized close to his lifetime, unlike other dynasties.

So - back to Cancor and the “Robertians.”

Side note: Lorsch Abbey is a landmark of German wine culture! Cheers.

https://www.germanwines.de/tourism/landmarks-of-wine-culture/landma...

Lorsch Abbey itself was founded in 764, first as a private monastery of the Alemannic Count Cancor and his mother Williswinda. Soon thereafter they gave it to one of their relatives: Chrodegang, archbishop of Metz, the godfather of the Carolingian dynasty, and at the time, the only archbishop north of the Alps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancor

According to one source,[which?] Cancor was probably related to the Robertians. His father's name may have been Rodbert.[3] Robert may have been his brother or his nephew.

3. Williswanda's late husband's name is mentioned in the Lorsch necrology: [1]. This is cited by at least one modern secondary source, here (Bouchard): p.188 [see the document https://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000186174770141]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertians

Modern proposals about their ancestry further back are based on the idea that there was one family which frequently named its sons Robert, including Robert III of Worms (800–834), Robert the Strong (d. 866), and Robert I of France (866–923). For example, one proposed ancestor is Robert of Hesbaye (c. 800), about whom there are almost no records.

Sorry for rambling - but it’s this last point I was looking at. To me, we take Settipani very seriously.

Maybe this chart helps?

https://books.openedition.org/psorbonne/24639

D’après K. Glöckner, « Lorsch und Lothringen, Robertiner und Capetinger », dans Z.G.O., nf. 50 (1937), p. 301-304.