Unknown mistress of Louis I - Not Theodelinde of Sens

Started by Sharon Doubell on Thursday, June 28, 2018
Problem with this page?

Participants:

Profiles Mentioned:

Related Projects:

Showing all 8 posts

I'm not finding the sources that give Louis Is unknown mistress the name (or apparent family) of Theodelinde of Sens. The wikipedia citation has never been added.
At the moment her relationships are these:
Daughter of Gainfroi, count of Sens and Theidlindis de Blois
Wife of Reginmund van Friesland
Partner of Louis I, The Pious
Mother of Gisela of Lotharingia, Abbess of Nivelles Abbess of Nivelles; Arnoul and Alpaïs, Abbess of St-Pierre & Reims

These are the only sources, so it should be this:
Emperor Louis I had [two] illegitimate children by Mistress (1):
10. [ALPAIS ([793/94]-23 Jul 852 or after, bur [Reims]). Flodoard refers to "Ludowicus Alpheidi filie sue uxori Begonis comitis"[231]. The Annales Hildesheimenses name "filiam imperatoris…Elpheid" as the wife of "Bicgo de amici regis" when recording the death of her husband[232]. Settipani discusses the debate about the paternity of Alpais, preferring the theory that Emperor Charles I was her father[233]. If Emperor Louis was her father, it is unlikely that she was born before [793/94], given his known birth date in 778. It would therefore be chronologically tight for her to have had [three] children by her husband before his death in 816. However, no indication has been found in primary sources of the age of these children when their father died. The question of Alpais's paternity is obviously not beyond doubt, but it is felt preferable to show her as the possible daughter of Emperor Louis in view of the clear statement in Flodoard. No indication has been found of the name of Alpais's mother. If Alpais was the daughter of Emperor Louis, it is likely that she was not her husband's only wife in view of Bego's estimated birth date. After her husband died, she became abbess of Saint-Pierre-le-Bas at Reims in [817]. She was still there 29 May 852. m ([806]) [as his second wife,] BEGO, son of --- (-28 Oct 816). He governed the county of Toulouse as "marchio" for Septimania in 806. Comte de Paris [815].]

11. ARNOUL ([794]-after [Mar/Apr] 841). The Chronicon Moissacense names "quartum…filium [Ludovici]…ex concubina…Arnulfum" recording that his father gave him the county of Sens[234]. Comte de Sens 817. He was a supporter of his half-brother Emperor Lothaire in [Mar/Apr] 841[235].

The wikipedia source for Arnoulf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnulf_of_Sens doesn't cite the primary documentation, and even wikipedia finds this suspicious. The assumption appears to be based only on Arnoulf's being made Count of Sens by his father

Arnulf of Sens
This article does not cite any sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2015)

Arnulf of Sens (c.794 – April, 841) was a Frankish noble, an illegitimate son of the Louis the Pious,[1] son of Charlemagne. He had one sister, Alpaïs de Paris,[1] abbess of St-Pierre de Reims. In 794 Arnulf's mother Theodelinde of Sens died. His grandfather Charlemagne died in 814, and Arnulf's father Louis became Emperor. Three years later in 817, Arnulf, was appointed count of Sens in Burgundy. He was the first son of Louis the Pious, but he did not inherit land because his birth was illegitimate. In April 841, a year after his father had died, he died at Sens.

References
McKitterick 2008, p. 93.
Sources
McKitterick, Rosamond (2008). Charlemagne: The Formation of a European Identity. Cambridge University Press.

Find A Grave, though, seems to have a Theodelinde de Sens and her (purported) father Gainfroi de Sens both buried at Abbey de Sainte Colombe de SensSens, Departement de l'Yonne, Bourgogne, France
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/147277593/theodelinde-de_sens

But her purported mother Theidlindis de Blois de Sens is not buried there (or anywhere known) - somewhat surprising.

The only child that Find A Grave gives as Theodelinde's is Alpaïs d'Aquitaine - not buried with her purported mother (not surprising, though.)

Arnoulf's grave or relationship to Louis is unmentioned by Find a Grave.

While geni cites no sources for Gisela of Lotharingia, Abbess of Nivelles or her purported father Reginmund van Friesland who is purported to be the other husband of Unknown Concubine of Louis I<

Primary sources suggest that Gisela, Abbess of Nivelles is the illegitimate child of Lothair

GISELA ([860/65]-[21 May/26 Oct] 907). Regino records the marriage in 882 of "Gisla filia Hlotharii" and "rex Godofridus Nordmannorum"[63]. The Annales Fuldenses record the marriage of "Gotafrid Nordmannus qui superiore anno fuerat baptizatus" and "Hugone Hlutharii filio eiusque sororem" in 883[64]. Abbess at Nivelles and Fosses, after her husband died. "Zendeboldus…rex" gave "proprietatem…in loco…VII Fontes" to "propinqua nostra…Kisla…regis Lotharii filia…abbatisse" by charter dated 30 Jul 896[65]. "Zuendebolchus…rex" gave property to "neptis nostre…Gissele…Nyuialensis abbaciæ" for her abbey by charter dated 26 Jul 897[66]. m (882) GODEFRID, son of HARALD "Klak" & his wife --- (-murdered Jun 885). He was one of the leaders of the Danes who ravaged large parts of territory between the Rhine and the Somme. He converted to Christianity, and Emperor Charles "le Gros" granted him large parts of Frisia as dux.

so I'm disconnecting these two from Theodelinde and Loius.

On the issue of using Find A Grave as a support for Unknown Concubine of Louis I as the Unknown mistress of Louis, it must be noted that Find A Grave's dates make Theodelinde 10! years old at the birth of Alpaïs, Abbess of St-Pierre & Reims
(the debate about whose paternity I have discussed at some length on the Charlemagne Descent line project: https://www.geni.com/projects/Charlemagne-Direct-Descent-Line/1550)

There is thus no evidence anywhere that I can see to make Theodelinde the mother of Alpais.

Thus no evidence I can find supports Theodelinde as the mistress of Louis and parent of either Arnoulf or Alpais - which is unsurprising as the medievalists appear to find none either.

New profile for Theodelinde, de Sens, daughter of Gainfroi, count of Sens and Theidlindis de Blois

Irmingard in de Haspengouw

Born circa 780

Died 3 October 818

Source : FamilySearch

States she was married to Louis I 'the Pious', and to Lodewijk I, Keizer der Franken en Kombarden

Not sure if this can shed some light.

No primary sources.

Showing all 8 posts

Create a free account or login to participate in this discussion