Lady Joan Fitzgerald, Duchess of Ormond - Lady Joan had no children with Sir Francis Bryan

Son of Sir Francis Bryan

Francis Bryan, {possibly fictional}

Grave of Sir Francis Bryan II
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/185653222/francis-bryan

Cemetery where Sir Francis Bryan II is buried
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2358438/bryans-island-cemetery

Numerous DNA matches to the descendants AND ancestors of Sir Francis Bryan including, Fitzgerald, Butler, Brincker and more matching the pedigree exactly as it is shown on geni.

Joan did not want to be married to Bryan she wanted to marry her Fitzgerald cousin. Two husbands including Bryan were poisoned.

Reposting

From https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/Xw...

Bef 28 Aug 1548 Bryan m. Joan daughter of James FitzMaurice (FitzGerald), 10th earl of Desmond (CP, Ormond section). This was a political marriage
intended to prevent Joan from marrying with Gerald FitzGerald, the heir of
the 15th Earl of Desmond, a marriage that would have united two chief Irish
noble houses. Bryan became Lord Marshal of Ireland and in the following
year was elected Lord Justice. Two months later, on 2 Feb 1550, Byan
suddenly died at Clonmel. An autopsy was performed, but the cause of death
was not discovered. Within a year, Joan married Gerald."

——

In this two month long marriage how did she become the mother of two children?

Page 205 of Get this book in print▼

My library
My History
Books on Google Play
A Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire

Bernard Burke
Harrison, 1866 - Baronetage - 636 pages.

Link

https://books.google.com/books?id=OpxfAAAAcAAJ&lpg=PA210&ot...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25497799.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3A...

OURNAL ARTICLE
No. 2. The Earls of Desmond

James Graves
The Journal of the Historical and Archaeological Association of Ireland
Third Series, Vol. 1, No. 2 (1869), pp. 459-498
Published by: Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25497799

Nothing about Joan Fitzgerald having children by Francis Bryan

(In case it wasn’t clear, Burke’s says Francis Bryan died d.s.p.)

The claim for an American descent seems to come from this book

https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Spear_and_the_Spindle.html...

The Spear and the Spindle: Ancestors of Sir Francis Bryan (d. 1550), Kt., Chief Gentleman of the Privy Chamber for Henry VIII of England : Bryan, Bourchier, Bohun, FitzAlan and Others Including Kings and Queens of England, France, and Other Countries ; Some Magna Charta Sureties and Some Descendants Including Those Commonly Believed to be Ancestors of Rebecca Bryan (m. Daniel Boone)

———

I find it curious then that Rebecca Bryan is not listed as a “Gateway” ancestor

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval...

“I have this book. Unfortunately the author only repeats the alleged ancestry
of Morgan Bryan (of North Carolina) without any attempt to locate original
sources. He makes the assumption that Sir Francis Bryan was his ancestor
and traces their ancestry, mainly through the Complete Peerage. Some of that
is false, too, like claiming that the Briennes were the ancestors of the
Bryans. There is nothing new on Morgan's family in the colonies.”

Interesting post about Margaret Bouchier, Francis Bryant’s Mother

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval...

More confirmation Francis Bryan was childless

In this chapter Margaret Bourchier is mentioned with her three husbands.
Margaret Bourchier
married (1) John Sandys, son of William and Margaret Cheney
this marriage was childless
married (2) Thomas Bryan, he died 1556/57, son of Thomas
this marriage produced three children
married (3) David de La Zouche
no children from this marriage

the three children are :
1.Francis Bryan, died 2 February 1550
married (1) Philippa Spice, daughter of Humphrey Spice
married (2) Joan FitzGerald, died 2 January 1565
daughter of James, 10th Earl of Desmond and Amy Mac-I-Brien-Ara
both marriages were childless
2.Elizabeth Bryan
married 1514 Nicholas Carew
they had children
3.Margaret or Margery, died 1532
married May 1512, Sir Henry Guildford
childless

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval...

Sources for the post above

In Cahiers de Saint Louis is a chapter on the descendants of Anne of
Gloucester and as sources are given :

The Complete Peerage
Visitations of Kent (Harleian Society, 74,75)
Visitations of Lincolnshire Pedigrees (Harl.Soc. 50,51,52,55)
Visitations of York (Harl. Soc. 14)
Victoria County History, Essex
Ruvigny "The Blood Royal" Essex Volume
Vivian's Visitation of Cornwall
Vivian's Visitation of Devonshire

One more

From https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryan-167#Disputed_Descendants

Disputed Descendants

Sir Francis Bryan had at least one illegitimate son "who is mentioned as carrying a despatch to London in 1548 from the French admiral"[1] - by Abigail Elwell?[8] He had no known legitimate children who had issue, although online trees give him a son by Philippa as well as Francis by Joan. Tudor Place gives him three children: Edmund by Philippa, Francis and Elizabeth by Joan.

This online tree (unsourced) says that Philippa's granddaughter, Anne Butler Bryan, married Gen. Spottswood. However, "Colonel Spotswood married, in 1724, Ann Butler Brain, daughter of Mr. Richard Brain, of London".[9] Wikipedia has his wife's name as Anne Butler Brayne.

Richardson does not show that Sir Francis had any children by either of his wives (but also does not note "no issue" by either).

At his death, Sir Francis and his wife, Lady Joan Fitzgerald, had a son, Francis, but historians do not have evidence he lived beyond early childhood.

Nevertheless, many people (including me in years past) have claimed Sir Francis as an ancestor. See this site: Tudor History blog.

I use the Rootsweb free Medieval genealogy list for the latest research, done by others, since I have no access to original records, on any connection back to English history. I also own the book The Spear and the Spindle about the ancestry of Francis Bryan, son of Sir Francis and Lady Joan (see below).

The Name and Family of Bryan or Brian by Thomas R. Bryan (p. ix) states that Sir Francis Bryan had issue of a son named Francis by his second wife.... The young Francis Bryan held lands in the County of Clare, Ireland; married an Ann Smith, and had a son William or William Smith Bryan who was deported in 1650 by Cromwell. "

Where is documentary evidence for this?

And from https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bryan-102#Warning

Paul Gifford posted this at Genforum: From this source, J. D. Bryan, "The Boone-Bryan History," an article in the_Register of the Kentucky Historical Society_ 3, no. 9 (Sept. 1905), and reprinted as a booklet in 1913, writes that Morgan's father was "believed to be William" Bryan and that his mother was "believed to be Sarah Bringer."
Then J. W. Shearer, in _The Shearer-Akers Family_ (Somerville, NJ, 1915), who was interested in the descendants of William Bryan, who, according to a documents passed down through his descendants, had been of Ballyroney, Ireland, in 1717, made this William Bryan out to be Morgan Bryan's brother. He changed the name of the father to "William Smith Bryan" and had him coming to Virginia in 1650. There is, of course, no documentation here.

Later versions changed William to Francis Bryan and made "Bringer" into "Brinker" and had her Dutch and related to the Prince of Orange (I wonder if the story "Hans Brinker" by H. C. Andersen had appeared sometime in the meantime and influenced this). What were guesses in 1905 became, by 1934 or 1946 (Edward Bryan, "The Bryan Lineage and Alliances, Filson Club History Quarterly, 20 [1946]: 37-8) facts, at least as far as Morgan Bryan's ancestors are concerned.

———

So an invented son Francis ll (or a mixup of real persons, a died young son & an unrelated landowner in County Clare) leads to a fabricated “William Smith Bryan” marrying an imaginary Dutch noble woman in order to produce Morgan Bryan of North Carolina and a Royal Pedigree for Daniel Boone descendants.

Does that sound about right ?

Private User

Anyone else

Any comments ?

This Morgan Bryan

Erin Ishimoticha You curate.

Time to disconnect from ancestors and fix the overview?

A discussion about Robert Bryan, son of Francis Bryan by this 1st wife, reiterating that he had no surviving issue with Joan Fitzgerald

https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/514806/evidence-there-support-robert-b...

Have been watching and waiting for this one...so much controversy...as a few of my other lines have as well. I do know that i dna match several known Boone descendants. Thank you for working so hard on this Erica!!

Yep. Disconnect from ancestors and fix the overview.

History of Parliament for Francis Bryan mentions “at least one illegitimate son.”

I created a “mistress” profile and moved over unknown Bryant & Robert Bryan

I am unclear about Robert, by date he could have been a child of Phillipa Bryan ... Or he could be spurious.

Will of Francis Bryan doesn’t exist according to HOP. (Rather odd, that, for such a wealthy & powerful man.). Suggestions on how to deal with these fellows on Geni most Welcome.

I also made a “died young ?” Francis Bryan, (died young) Profile so people wouldn’t think Geni had a missing profile.

In a marriage of less than a year’s duration it is not really possible for Joan to have had two children.

The overviews have been commented but further help cleaning up overviews is very much appreciated. They get redundant and disorganized from merges.

Beverly Renee Hallman Marsh, Gedmatch Kit #XK9447597 The bits I’ve seen on DNA studies for Bryan and specifically Morgan Bryan descendants is interesting. He is looking quite Irish! Theory is he was originally a Morragh O’Brien.

Clearing out the romantic ancestral speculations of an earlier era in genealogy should help researchers.

https://www.geni.com/discussions/146084?by_or_about=600000000568483...

Cross posting an earlier discussion on the family

Ok, not only is there no evidence to support Robert Bryan as a son of Phillipa Bryan , there is evidence against. The property of Tor Brian in Devonshire his descent is associated with is an entirely different family. Disconnected.

I would agree that by common documentation standards of genealogy it seems increasingly unlikely that one could claim the notorious Sir Francis Bryan is an ancestor of the also somewhat notorious Captain Morgan Bryan. However (of course you knew there was a 'however' coming), it isn't farfetched to explain this lack of documentation by political and financial facts that are so obvious I can't imagine anyone disputing them.

Tudor England was kept busy for decades appropriating the property and wealth of the Catholic Church and the lands of the British Isles. I believe this period of Irish history is often called the Norman Invasion of Ireland. Significant land holdings were granted to Sir Francis in Ireland which would be a significant part of this assertion of English dominance over Ireland. Also his heirs would benefit mightily from inheritance from their mother's family wealth (if indeed there were offspring from Sir Francis and Lady Joan).

Because Lady Joan had children in the Butler line before and Fitzgerald line after the potential Bryan child or children, that would be two powerful families with all the means necessary to surpress any inheritance claims by these 'English' invaders. There is even a death bed wish conveyed by Sir Francis about protecting his son which I can look up again if there is interest (I think I posted it on an Ancestry.com bulletin board with citation).

In any case there seem to be two or three generations of descendants who tried to assert their claim and the Francis Bryan, Jr - Ann Smith couple are potentially the most interesting because Ann Smith is from what seems to be a prominent English family.

Concerning the bona fides of document based evidence consider the contemporary (as in only days old) case of the supposedly untouchable filings by banks of notification of suspicious transactions. Because some of these documents were disappearing someone decided to leak other documents related to Trump's fixer. People with power can make documents disappear.

As DNA analysis gets more widespread and detailed there might be a way to clarify genealogy without as much of a need to depend on documents. I can trace my lineage to Morgan, Jr and Captain Morgan so when prices come down I will buy one of the more complete DNA tests.

It would make an intriguing story if the canny Vicar of Hell was outsmarted by the FitzGeralds and Butlers, including poisoning him. He must have had significant English holdings, so that would be the paper direction to look in, specifically the Carew family, as his Guilford sister died without issue. Elizabeth Carew, Lady Carew

NB: HOP has that his property seemed to have been on lease.

So you’re asking a great question: where did the cash go?

Steve Bryan

Re: There is even a death bed wish conveyed by Sir Francis about protecting his son which I can look up again if there is interest (I think I posted it on an Ancestry.com bulletin board with citation).

Yes, that would be of interest. There are two outstanding questions

1. Did he in fact have a son born about 1518, what was his name, and are we sure that wasn’t his step son Henry

2. Was there (non surviving) issue

I should admit what is already obvious. I am trafficking in conspiracy theory. But gosh it is fun. Now I just want to find that death bed quote from Sir Francis again. It was years ago and wasn't easy to find then. Incidentally, I don't think the FitzGeralds and Butlers outsmarted the wily Vicar of Hell (except for that unfortunate matter of poisoning which I think points to Lady Desmond). They just had to outmaneuver the infant son.

At some point I would like to travel to Gloucester County, Virginia and Bryan Cemetery Island to see if there is any tangible trace of Bryans before Morgan, Sr. If I have read the sources/rumors accurately the three generations before Morgan, Sr were exiled to or traveled to Virginia Colony before returning to Ireland/Europe. Morgan being the first to arrive and remain.

Here is the quote from archive.org:

Kerry Ross Boren
3 years ago
Sir Francis Bryan was not from Dorset; he was born and lived on his family estate at Cheddington, Buckinghamshire. He did indeed have a son by his wife, Lady Joan Fitzgerald. Sir Francis spoke of this child on his death bed to Sir John Allen, the Irish chancellor, who was present at Bryan's death and at the autopsy of his body. It is a matter of official record. There are many naysayers about the lineage of Sir Francis Bryan but no one offers any credible evidence to the contrary.
1
Reply
−

sdbryan Kerry Ross Boren
2 years ago
When I finally located this quote on archive.org:

" Sixt.— Ye shall (if it shall be demaunded of
you), declare the maner of the Lorde Justices [Sir
Francis Bryan's] dethe, which I have amply de-
clared unto youe, myself lyeing in his house, and
being then w*. him ; and where it had been re-
ported that he sholde dye of a purgac'on it is
not true; for he wolde by no meanes be p'-
suaded to take any medicine. I was at th'op-
peneng of him, wherupon the physicians, by the
serche of his hart, and other his entrailles, de-
f yned that he died of gref ; but wherof so euer he
died, he dep'ted veray godly. I have the ra-
ther made menc'on of his dethe, because when
he bade me farewell, he desired me to haue him
com' ended to all his f rends in Ingland, and
speciallie, saithe he, to my Lorde Pryvaie Seall
[Lord Cromwell] my Lord of Warwick, and Mr.
Herbert, and pray them to be good to my son
the poore boy ; whiche my chardge I com'it to
youe to doo, if yc can atteyn to their presens,
to declare it."

I left in the previous post which includes names with modern spelling. Although archive.org shows as a hyperlink it doesn't go to the specific source but that web site is where I found it two years ago. Obviously it can be viewed as ambiguous but "poore boy" seems more likely to be a child rather than a 32 year old adult.

Re: “poore boy" seems more likely to be a child rather than a 32 year old adult.

Agree. Also, presumably he would have settled anything he felt due his previous issue not only once but twice, before each marriage.

Since we’re looking at a child under 2 years old “Poore boy” could imply

1. Sickly
2. So sad he’s about to be orphaned, alas !

What’s up with “died of grief?” ??

His brother in law Carew lost his head several years before. Who was head of the Bryan family next? I’m guessing Mama for a while ....

The Lord Privy Seal in 1550 was

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Russell,_1st_Earl_of_Bedford

I’m not sure if my Lord Warwick refers to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dudley,_2nd_Earl_of_Warwick or his father. Guildford family connection & there’s Bourchier mentioned in the bio for Bedford.

Asking his English friends to look out for an Ireland born boy. He had to not be trusting his wife much.

I was just cruising through here and discovered that Morgan Bryan is now considered to be a case of spontaneous generation? No parents? I understand there is controversy about whether Sir Francis Bryan was actually the father of a Francis Bryan in Claire, Ireland who was married to Ann Smith but that is more than a century before Morgan Bryan and omits three generations.

Some of these, now omitted, generations are not without documented presence. For instance Ann Smith, the wife of Francis Bryan in Claire, Ireland, is the daughter of Sir William Smith who does appear in the Dictionary of National Biography. It would appear that her son was named for her father as the son's name was given as William Smith Bryan.