Roger II de Tosny, seigneur de Conches - Separating Roger de Tosny, seigneur de Conches from Roger de Tosny d'Espagne (The Spaniard)

I am in the process of separating these men. @Roger II de Tosny, seigneur de Conches and @Roger I 'd'Espagne' de Tosny

CURATOR'S NOTE from Pam Wilson, 18 May 2017. For many years, historians and genealogists have considered Roger de Tosny "de Conches" and "The Spaniard" to have been one and the same, while acknowledging many problems with this theory. Noted medieval prosopographer Katherine S.B. Keats-Rohan posits that these may actually represent two different men whose identities have been ambiguated over the years. In his most recent update to the Medieval Lands Database, Charles Cawley concurs and, based upon suggestions by Keats-Rohan and others (see his footnotes), separates Roger "d'Espagne' de Toeni (son of Raoul II de Tosny) and Roger "de Conches" (parent unknown) as two separate men, perhaps uncle and nephew. Believing Keats-Rohan to be the foremost interpreter of these families, we have separated the two Rogers of Tosny on the Geni tree.

Katherine Keats-Rohan, in her article "Domesday Book and the Malets: patrimony and the private histories of public lives, with an Appendix on Welbourn Castle, Lincolnshire," Nottingham Medieval Studies 41 (1997) 13-56, (available online at https://www.academia.edu/552480/Domesday_Book_and_the_Malets_patrim...) writes in Footnote #178:

"Orderic's Interpolation in William of Jumièges (van Houts 2, 94) says that Roger of Conches fought briefly in Spain c. 1035. This may have been a separate incident to the prolonged stay in Spain of a Roger, usually identified as de Tosny, mentioned in the chronicles of Adhemar and Clarius of Sens (Adhemar de Chabannes, Chronique, ed. J.Chavanon (Paris, 1897),pp.178-9; Clarius de Sens, Annales de Saint-Pierre-le-Vif, ed. Dune, Bibl. historiques de l'Yonne, vol. 2 (1863), 501) as having spent some time in Spain, where he married the daughter of Ramon Berenguer I of Barcelona (then dead) c.1018. In his Ecclesiastical History 2, 68, Orderic once refers to a Roger 'the Spaniard' and he may do so to distinguish him from the Roger de Tosny, founder of Conches, he mentions elsewhere (ib., 10, 40, 140). The younger Roger was perhaps the nephew of the elder. To suppose that there were two Rogers resolves a problem unsatisfactorily discussed in L. Musset, 'Aux origines d'une classe dirigeante: les Tosny, grands barons normands du X au XIIIe siècle', Francia 5 (1978), 52, M. Aurell, Les noces du comte.Marriage et pouvoir en Catalogne (785-1213), Paris 1995, 56-8, and Keats-Rohan, 'The prosopography of post-Conquest England', 35. The elder Roger was possibly the father of Robert de Tosny, lord of Belvoir in Lincolnshire, father of a Berengar and brother of Berengar Hispina. On this view Roger of Conches is absolved of the charge of bigamy, since Stephanie of Barcelona was alive during the time of Roger's marriage with the French or Norman Godehildis, subsequently the wife of Richard count of Evreux. Both Rogers died around the same time, Roger II soon after his return to Normandy, c.1040, and Roger I by 1038 when Stephanie married her second husband Garciaof Navarre".

Cawley writes (http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/NORMANDY%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc489686673) from FMG Medieval Lands updated May 2018::

One of the most controversial issues regarding the Tosny family is whether there were two individuals named Roger de Tosny who were active during the first half of the 11th century. Keats-Rohan raised the possibility that Roger de Tosny who travelled to Spain in [1018] (shown above as Roger [I]), was different from a younger Roger de Tosny (maybe nephew of Roger [I]) who founded Conches abbey (shown below as Roger [II])[1182]. The same theory has been espoused more recently by Jaime de Salazar Acha, although his main purpose is identifying the wife of Roger [I] as discussed above[1183]. The theory of two individuals is confirmed by the charter dated to [1040], quoted below, which is witnessed by both "Rodgerii filii Rodulfi" (assumed to be Roger [I]) and "Rogerii de Conchis" (Roger [II]). The parentage of Roger [II] has not been ascertained, but presumably he was closely related to Roger [I]. The estimated birth date “[before 1038]” of Raoul [III], son of Roger [II] see below, suggests that Roger [II] was considerably younger than Roger [I] and therefore may have been nephew of the latter. The fact that Roger [II] was ancestor of the later Tosny family is shown by two charters which record his descendants. Firstly, Henry I King of England confirmed the foundation of Conches by "Rogerius senior de Toenio et filius eius Radulphus senex et Radulphus juvenis filius prædicti Radulphi senis et Rogerius filius Radulphi juvenis", quoting the foundation by "Rogerius filius Radulphi Toteniensis" for the soul of "coniugis meæ Godehildis", by charter dated to [1130][1184]. Secondly, Henry II King of England confirmed the property of Conches, including donations by "Rogeris senior de Toenio et filius eius Radulfus senex et Radulphus juvenis filius predicti Radulphi senex et Roger filius Radulphi juvenis", by charter dated 1165 or [1167/73][1185].

SOURCES

[1182] Keats-Rohan ‘Domesday Book and the Malets’ (1997), pp. 13-56, footnote 178.

[1183] Salazar Acha ‘Estefanía de Pamplona’ (2007), pp. 853-64.

[1184] Gallia Christiana, XI, Instrumenta, V, col. 128.

[1185] Actes Henri II, Tome I, CCCCXXIII, p. 550.