More lines from King David : Paloma

I like the idea of a profile for a daughter and a profile for a partner. Might be easier to examine evidence that way.

You obviously have my support.

It's a good approach. Thank you for the fascinating account. I went to see if my path to King David was through Paloma (no).

It sounds completely partisan and ahistorical. What is the reason not to cut here,that is being applied anywhere else?
David shouldn't have living descendents.

Unless I'm misunderstanding because no coffee in my system yet?

We have some advocates for this line. I'm giving them a chance to comment if they care to defend it publicly.

Crickets..

I gave it three or four days for Kenneth and Niall, after I'd messaged all the managers. Also more or less crickets.

"There is no direct, contemporary evidence about Alfonso's mother or her ancestry." Why are we making exceptions here?

Waiting to see if someone can produce something.

Okay.

Private User

I am standing by the testimony of chroniclers of the period.

My interest in Paloma has nothing to do with King David nonsense...it has everything to do with contemporary 'historians' presuming to ignore chroniclers of the period in question.

The Portuguese chronicler, Fernando Lopes, wrote in connection with events that occurred in 1384, stating that ** the Admiral (Alfonso Enriques) was the son of a Jew **; the "event" was the murder of his father on 29 May 1358 in the Alcázar of Seville.

In "Memorial de cosas viejas" ('Memorial of old things') attributed to the Dean of Toledo, Diego de Castilla (himself a "victim" of Carranza's 'la mancha de sangre dzudia'), wrote that Alfonso said Fadrique (father of Alfonso Enriques) was son of a Jewish resident of Guadalcanal called 'Paloma'.

Alfonso Enriques de Castilla owned printing presses and he was the only member of the family who actively encouraged Jews to print their texts, for export to other areas of spain and Portugal: https://books.google.com/books?id=9NB0cialptcC&pg=PA424&amp......

The chroniclers of that period cannot be ignored.

Why would anyone care to explore the genealogy of people in medieval period?

In 1547, the then-archbishop of Toledo (Bartolomé Carranza (1503 – 2 May 1576) passed a statute of "limpieza de sangre" (cleanliness of blood), excluding from ecclesiastical office, and subsidy therefrom, anyone with a trace of Jewish lineage over four generations - the statute which served as empirical example to 1930's Germany when formulating the "Nuremberg Laws".

Bartolome Carranza's declaration catalyzed frenetic genealogical research in that time period so that all families could be proven "libre de la mancha de sangre dzudia". To be clear, Carranza was the 'Goebbels' of his day - the guy in charge of enforcing anti-semitic laws in Medieval Spain. The identity of Jews was ferociously pursued in Spain in 1500's -- when a Spanish or Portuguese chronicler testifies that a person is a Jew, this is a serious testimony -- it could mean death.

Diego de Castilla's testimony has more weight than a flippant note in the margins of a book.

The objection I have is that these sources support the idea that Alfonso Enriques' mother was Jewish. They don't support the specific connection being made on Geni.

"In "Memorial de cosas viejas" ('Memorial of old things') attributed to the Dean of Toledo, Diego de Castilla (himself a "victim" of Carranza's 'la mancha de sangre dzudia'), wrote that Alfonso said Fadrique (father of Alfonso Enriques) was son of a Jewish resident of Guadalcanal called 'Paloma'."
- So this is the Historical Source for Alfonso's mother being Paloma?

Yes, but Diego de Castille is writing 200 years after these events.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Castilla

"Diego de Castilla (1510/15-1584), dean of Toledo Cathedral. Castilla was of Jewish blood, and this was a major issue, since in 1547, the then-archbishop of Toledo had passed a statute of cleanliness of blood, excluding from ecclesiastical office and benefices anyone with a trace of Jewish lineage over four generations. Therefore, Castilla developed an obsession for genealogy, working tirelessly to prove his family's links to Spain's medieval kings." - Wikipedia

So, a hundred years later, Diego de Castilla says that Alfonso says that his grandmother was a Jewish woman called Paloma?

Okay - if we have evidence of this document, I'm prepared to accept that.

But then what evidence for Paloma's parents?

That's where I am on this. Prepared to accept that she was a Jewish woman named Paloma.

Is there evidence of this document?
Why is Eleanor de Guzmán cited as Alfonso's grandmother then?

Not sure what you're seeing. Diego de Castilla was born 1510/15. Alonso Enríquez was born 1354. Maybe more than two generations between them.

I'm trying to find the primary source for Jaim's citation - so flipping through Wikipedia to see if they've got the link for "Memorial de cosas viejas".
There I see that 'Fadrique (father of Alfonso Enriques)' is not shown as 'the son of a Jewish resident of Guadalcanal called 'Paloma'", but as the son of Eleanor de Guzmán https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fadrique_Alfonso,_Lord_of_Haro

I was using the 1429 death date of Alfonso .

Leonor Núñez de Guzmán, señora de Medina Sidonia

Okay, I see. Paloma is said to have been Fadrique's mistress, not his mother.

That's not what Jaim is saying, though?

This topic comes up now and then at soc.genealogy.medieval but I don't find a thorough account there. This message is perhaps the most informative.

William Addams Reitwiesner (20 Feb. 1998):
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/sVAW...

---

Here's the descent:

Alfonso XI, King of Castile (1311-1350) = Leonor de Guzman (1310-1351)
Fadrique de Castilla (1333/4-1358) = NN
Alonso Enriquez, 1. Admiral of Castile (c1354-1429) m. Juana de Mendoza
Fadrique Enriquez, 2. Admiral of Castile (-1473) m. Marina de Ayala
Juana Enriquez (c1425-1468) m. 1447 Juan II King of Aragon (1397-1479)
Ferdinand II King of Aragon (1452-1516)

The Jewish woman was the mistress of Fadrique and mother of Alonso. For a
fairly complete examination, see Florentino Perez Embid, *El Almirantazgo
de Castilla hasta las Capitulaciones de Santa Fe*, note 430 on pages 142
and 143, though Perez Embid misses the version of the story given by Rabbi
Eliyahu ben Elqana Capsali (c1490-c1555) in his *Seder Eliyahu Zuta*,
recently re-published by the Hebrew University, Jerusalem (1975). See
chapter 58 in volume I, pp. 182-184.

As neither of these sources are easy to find, and Capsali is in Hebrew,
more accessible versions were published twice by Szabolcs de Vajay, once in
"Die Ahnen der Dona Leonor Alvarez de Toledo, Grossfuerstin von Toskana",
*Genealogisches Jahrbuch*, Band 8 (1968), at nr. 73 on p. 13, and again in
"Dona Margarita de Cardona, Mutter des ersten Fuersten von Dietrichstein",
*Jahrbuch der Heraldisch-Genealogischen Gesellschaft "Adler"*, Dritte
Folge, Band 7 (1970), at nr. 41 (and note 87) on p. 144.

And there's always *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, ed. Schwennicke, Band III,
Teilband 3, Tafel 532b, where Alonso Enriquez (Ferdinand's great-
grandfather, see above) is described as a son of Fadrique "aus der
Verbindung mit einem judischen Madchen gt La Paloma (die Taube)".

Private User, am I misunderstanding you?

Sorry, cross posted