Matilda de Vesci - Are her parents correct?

Tagging related profiles 

Sir Robert de Vesci

Yvo / Yves II de Vesci / Vescy, Lord of Alnwick and Malton, Yorkshire

Swain fitz Alric

And possibly interested geni members 

Pam Wilson (on hiatus)

And tagging Anne Brannen who curates Alaric, of Silkstone

Further to the above:

Early Yorkshire Carters 1664

Notification by Adam son of Swen to William, archbishop of
York, of his confirmation to the canons of Nostell of the gift
made to them by his father, Swen son of Ailric, by the hand
of archbishop Thurstan, of the church of Hodroyd (i.e.
Felkirk) with i carucate, a mediety of the church of
Mexborough, the church of Adwick(-on-Dearne), Wintersett
with 2 carucates and in Crofton 8 bovates ; gift also of
4 bovates in Brampton(-Byerlaw) for the soul of Matilda
his wife. 1143-1154. 6

John O'Hart. Irish pedigrees

The Vescies held in Englewood and Camerton till late in the 12fch
century. They were patrons of Franceys of Warnel-Bank, a branch of the
Franceys of Cliburne, a family of some note there ; and it is a singular
coincidence that Robert de Vesci should hold Cliburne in 1083, and that
a descendant, Hervey de Vesci (thought by some to have been lord of that
manor in the 12th century) should pay a fine for marrying the widow of
Sweyn FitzAlric in 1130 (Pipe Boll, 31 Hen. I.), and not again appear as
*'De Vesci" in the records of Cumberland or Westmoreland.

Seems that Swein Fitzalric did not marry de Vescy, but Swein's widow did. That clears up the 'Miss de Vesci" mystery.

Going back to the proposed dob for Ailric I have done some further digging on the PASE data base and it looks like Swein Fitzalric is redorded as Swein of Elmsall and was a land owner in 1066. That pushes Ailric's dob to around the 1030's if his son was of age to be a Lord of a Manor by 1066.

The church at Felkirk mention above has a 10th century font and is believed to have been founded by Danes. The Danish history of those parts is very strong and I would think that Ailric and his neighbours were settled Danes probably dating back beyond Cnut's time.

Oppenheimer's book 'The Origins of the British' suggests that there may have been Danes in these parts before the Roman period and continued after it.

I disconnected Matilda as daughter of Harvey de Vesci & set up a 2nd husband profile

Was it this Hervey de Vesci son of Robert & dates have gone whacko?

Without further research I couldn't confirm that. The record from the EYC suggests that Hervey was fined10s by the King for this marriage and he was not known by his family name afterwards indicating that he had been disinherited. By the time of the marriage her son Adam had acquired holdings in Lancashire and was possibly connected to the de Boivilles of Mellom or Mellum.so there are some clues.

"Surnames" were still not a stable thing in the 12th century, and could change with the acquisition or loss of property, as well as with marriage (men too sometimes). Just another factor to look into....

Also, the sames are subject to interpretation and misspelling - de Vessey, de Vesci and de Vescy are one and the same.

According to: A companion and key to the history of England........

Robert and Yvo de Vesci were brothers and both appear at the time of the Conquest having been granted baronies by William. William died without issue. Robert's lineage was to his daughter Beatrice who married Eustave Fitz John and their son William assumed his Mothers name. He died in 1184. Thier son Eustace, one of the Magna Carter Barons died in 1216. He had married Margaret, daughter of William, King of Scotland. His heir was William de Vesci who died in 1253 and were succeeded by John and latterly his brother William de Vesci who both died without issue.

Interestingly William is said to have died without 'lawful issue' and it is often these illegitimate and offspring t second or third marriages who cause the confusion a thousand years later.

If we believe that the 'Miss de Vesci" is a false lead then the Mother of Adam Fitz Swain is only known at this time as the wife of Hervey de Vesci following the death of her first husband Swein Fitz Alric. So there is no Matilda de Vesci until her second marriage.

As a result of that marriage Hervey lost his right to use the de Vesci name and also had to pay a substantial fine to the King. There could be several reasons for this. First that he was marrying beneath him i.e. a commoner rather than from the titled Norman stock. Second that he was acquiring lands and wealth as a result of the marriage and had to pay the King for her hand in marriage. A wedding tax. I think that the former is the most likely. If we take my proposed timescale of Ailric being born around 1030, his son Swein around 1048 and both being Lords of manors by the Conquest then it is highly likely that Swein would have been married by 1066 and therefore his wife would likely to have been a Dane, not a Norman.

Looking at Hervey de Vesci I found a note here:

Notes and Queries 6th Series Volume VII of January 20, 1883 states that:

“Hervey De Vesci – Hervey (Nephew of Ivo and grandson of Robert de Vesci) is mentioned by the Viscount of Westmorland in the Pipe Roll 31 Hen. I. As his name does not again occur in that form in the records of the counties of Westmorland or Cumberland,

That puts Hervey as the son of a child of Robert de Vesci . There is a family tree here on the Chartulary of Pontefract : https://books.google.fr/books?id=zLoUMqXach0C&pg=PR52&dq=%2...

That does not list a Hervey and there appears to be no children attributed to Robert except the quote above that suggest that Hervey was a grandson of Robert.

So, in a nutshell I believe that the Matilda de Vesci referred to was originally Matilda, a Dane, probably born around 1048 and was from close to the manors of Swein and his father Alric.

Excuse me, I'm new here, I may have posted without asking first. I think I traced my family back to Flaald fitz Flaald, Seneschal de Dol en Bretagne, I know I found twin boys and somehow the family split one way went to a man named Walter (Stewert) in Scotland, and the other way went or ended up James the 1'st and Mary his mother & Sherriff of Nottingham. I really don't believe this. ( I have to dig out my research) I've only been working on this for 25 years and just found this info. If I'm out of line tell me to shut up please!. Swein Fitz Alric > Adam Fitz Swain I believe I ran into those two and the sur name Adam came there. My 3rd great grandfather on another branch is also from Scotland came to US in 1904, But the Adams family, From England who were Titled Families came to Connecticut in 1600's and from the to Canada c. 1776, then into Maine, US this is what I'm trying to connect now. 1856 Canadian Census placed English Adam Family on Deer Island, one of the Fundy Islands in the Bay of Fundy, Canada. It is at the entrance to Passamaquoddy Bay. The island was first settled by colonists around 1770 who sided with the British During American Revolution. The Adams' family were one of those family, but I need to prove. I found Barons, Lords, a Knight etc in England Are they my family? I don't know, it connects on paper. Delete this if I'm not suppose to post it. I will provide names when I get to my notes, BUT it was Adams' Family going back to

Private User

You’re doing the right thing, exploring the links that lead to a penultimate on Geni. When you visit a profile you’ll see your relationship described, and next to it is “share this link.” Find the Adams you’re talking about and start a discussion from that profile with your query.

Hi Stephen, If you have traced your lineage back to Flaald fitz Flaald then IMO you can forget the Adams family link that you mention. For one thing Alric was born before Flaald fitz Flaald and therefore cannot be his son. In fact Alric's son Swein Fitzalric was born before Flaald fitz Flaald. Also Swein's son Adam Fitzswein did not carry on the family name of Adams. He had two daughters and no sons. The daughters took their husband's names.

Okay, I'll have to look into that. I'd like to be able to print the whole thing out and look at in whole so I can correct it. What does AP I.E. AP Adams mean? I figured all the extended families would be coming up when you think of all the families grandmothers great-grandmothers so I'm just chilling out and working through it all thanks for all the advice it answers my questions.

Stephen, You may find that the link to Flaald FitzFlaald is from Olivia who's second husband was Roger III de Montbegon. Roger was the son of Adam de Montbegon and Maude Fitzswein. Maude's father was Swein Fitzalric and his father was Alric who is variously listed as Alric of Cawthorne or Alric of Silkstone.

The only link from Alric to FitzFlaald is via the second marriage of Olivia Fitzalan to Roger III de Montbegon and as both of her marriages were childless I don't see how she would feature in a direct lineage.

The Fitzflaald lineage is listed here: http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/tts/tts1903/sturton1.htm

"There is no doubt that this effigy is that of Oliva, the daughter and heiress of Alan Fitz-Jordan, dapifer or steward of Dol, and Joan, his wife. His father, Jordan

Fitz-Alan, was the eldest of the three sons of Alan Fitz- Flaald (the son of Flaald and grandson of Alan, dapifer Dolensis), the two younger sons being respectively William Fitz-Alan, who died 1160, and who was the founder of Haghmond Priory and the ancestor of the Fitz-Alans, Earls of Arundel; and Walter Fitz-Alan, who died 1177, the founder of Paisley Abbey, and who was dapifer, or steward to the King of Scotland, and from whom descended the royal house of Stewart, or Stuart.

But, to return to the Lady Oliva, the daughter of Alan Fitz-Jordan, who appears to have had a younger sister, Alice, the wife of William Espin, who inherited her father's estates in Britanny, whilst Oliva had those in England, and was Lady of Tuxford, Kirton, Warsop, and of Oswaldbeck and other manors. The manor of Oswald- beck Soke was originally a Wapentake, comprising what is now known as the North Clay Division, and Sturton is the chief place in it, and the principal church, and indeed has been called "the Minster of the Clays," hence no doubt the reason it was selected as the place of her burial."

To answer the question about “ap Adams”, ap is Welsh for “son of.” It’s the equivalent before surnames of “ben” in Hebrew for instance.

So since it refers to [son of a man called Adam], indeed the Adams families are not related, as there were many “sons of Adam.”

The two daughters of Adam Fitz Swain for whatever reason did not adopt Fitz adam as their surname. Both are referred to as Fitz swain.

Tagging Matilda, daughter of Adam fitz Swain & Amabel, daughter of Adam fitz Swain

There is still a discrepancy regards Swaine's date of birth. He is recorded in the Domesday records as being a land owner in his own right in 1066 so he must have been an adult at that time.

His dob must be 1050 or earlier.