Siegbert VI, count of Razès - Not Ermentrude's son in law?

TYPO Ermentrude of Orléans, queen of the Franks's profile, ONLY HAS sources for a daughter Rotrude, Abbess of Saint-Radegunde - who was a nun.

https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=14717218...

Princess Rothilde (Latin: Rothildis; 871 – 928/929) was a Frankish noble lady born into the royal family of Western Francia.

Rothilde was a daughter of the King of the Franks, Charles the Bald, son of Louis the Pious. Her mother was Charles’ second spouse, Queen Richilde of Provence, sister of King Boso of Provence.

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That's a lift from Ancestral Roots, 8th Ed rev, line 146, citing FMG (2003)

https://www.ancestry.com/interactive/49030/FLHG_AncestralRoots-0080...

Richaut, 2nd wife of Charles ll the bald, daughter of Bouvin, Count of Metz, by dau of Boso of Arles, Count in Italy.

Here's the FMG page

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAROLINGIANS.htm#RothildeMRogerMaine

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothilde

Some genealogists attribute to this lady one more husband, Hugh of Bourges.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richilde_of_Provence

Richilde of the Ardennes (or Richilde of Provence) (ca. 845 – 2 June 910, Kingdom of Lower Burgundy) was the second consort of Charles the Bald, King and Emperor of the Franks.[1] By her marriage, she became Queen of the West Franks, and then Empress of the Franks. She also served as a regent.

She bore him five children, but only the eldest daughter, Rothilde survived to adulthood.

So this Rothilde Rothilde of the Franks looks correct

This Rothilde Rothilde of the Franks is not listed as a daughter of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermentrude_of_Orléans

The larger issue here is the extent to which the counts of Razès might be faked or unsupported. The is the main Holy Blood, Holy Grail line. Supposedly, the Merovingians did not become extinct but went underground as counts of Razès, and became ancestors of the Plantard family.

I don't think I've ever seen an academic sources for the Razès line. Nor have I seen an amateur or Internet line that pre-dates Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

In Holy Blood, Holy Grail, Table 12 this Siegbert VI "Prince Ursus" died 884/85, married Rotitlde (no ancestry given). On Table 11 (Continuation) Rotilde's father is shown as Charles II "the Bald" of France. No mother shown. Siegbert's career as last count is described on pp. 261-64.

There's a possibility that Ermentrude's daughter - Rothilde the nun - married, and the two Rot profiles that are positioned as Ermentrude's daughters should be merged.

That, however, depends on the validity of the Sources (not given) for Siegbert VI, count of Razès (Fictitious Person):
His profile says: Siegbert VI, count of Razès also married St. Rotrude (Rothildis) Radegund CAROLING Princess of the Franks, daughter of Karl II "The Bald" CAROLING and Ermentrude (Irmtrud) D' ORLÉANS Queen of the West Franks 1786. (St. Rotrude (Rothildis) Radegund CAROLING Princess of the Franks was born about 844 in Aquitaine, France and died in 889-912.)

I think Justin might have a valuable opinion here - because I'd guess the link to their child - Guilhelm II, count of Razès (Fictitious Person) - provides someone with a royal line (and therefore motive to 'invent' sources?) At the same time, it might be perfectly valid.

Ahh cross posted. Thank you :-)

Two leads for anyone who wants to follow up on this:

French Wikipedia in the article Faux Mérovingiens describes Siegbert IV (supposed son of Dagobert II0 and Siegbert V as fakes.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_M%C3%A9rovingiens#Sigebert_IV_et...

French Wikipedia in the article Liste des comtes, puis des vicomtes de Razès does not name as of these supposed counts of Razès.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_comtes,_puis_des_vicomtes_d...

I just found it as a Holy Blood Holy Grail chart

https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/stamboom-homs/I60000000030513116...

And I think this Rothilde was in an earlier version of Wikipedia along with other children the 1st wife of Charles ll did not have - look at the geni profile overview notes.

This area needs a cleanup / detach / move around, it looks like.

I've been intending to clean it up for many years but haven't wanted the drama that would be involved. Maybe someone else will take it on.

I think this line must be disconnected from Ermentrude, labelled as fictional and relationship locked?

Yes.

The way I would do it is make Rothilde fictional, and add a note that Holy Blood, Holy Grail says she is a daughter of Charles II.

I would keep the Razès line connected to each other from Siegbert VI back to Siegbert IV but make sure Siegbert IV is not connected as a son of Dagobert II (see MedLands). And make sure none of their wives are connected to real lines.

Done, for Rotilde of the Franks {Fictitious Person}, Siegbert VI, count of Razès (Fictitious Person) and son Guilhelm II, count of Razès (Fictitious Person).
I forget if we add FICT into the title field too?

I don't know about the rest of the descent line?

Cross posted. Hang on... reading.

Siegbert VI, count of Razès wasn't on Geni as the son of Sigbert V or IV, but of Hildéric I, count of Razès and Wife of Hildéric de Razès (from whom I disconnected him)

I'll see if a search throws up the Sigberts V or IV ..

Siegbert V, count of Razès (Fictitious Person) and Siegbert IV, count of Razès (Fictitious Person)
Will disconnect the latter from Dagobert. Do you want to reconnect Sigbert V to Sigbert VI?

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigebert_IV) likes Siegbert IV, count of Razès (Fictitious Person) as Dagobert's son. Shoud I leave that conected on geni?

Or does Medlands disprove that connection?

Siegbert as a son of Dagobert II depends on a 10th century source. Could be good, maybe not. A bit late, I think. Wikipedia cites Settipani:

"Christian Settipani, in La Prehistoire des Capetiens (1993) argued that the Vita Sancti Arbogasti is too late a source to be accepted without care, and points to evidence that it places Arbogast and his successor Florentius up to a century too late (Arbogast died in around 600). He argues that the trio of Dagobert II, and his alleged wife Mathildis and son Sigebert, may actually have arisen from confusion with Dagobert I, his wife Nanthilde and son Sigebert (his mother was actually Ragnetrude)."

In any event, I think the best way to arrange this is to have

(a) Siegbert IV, son of Dagobert II, as a possibly real person with the above caveat.

(b) Siegbert IV, fake version of the above, not linked.

I can reconnect the line from Siegbert IV to Siegbert VI fairly easily but will probably be tomorrow night.

MedLands has no children for Dagobert II.

DAGOBERT ([652/56]-murdered Woëvre forest 23 Dec 679, bur Stenay, basilique Saint-Rémi). On the death of his father, Grimoald, maior domus in Austrasia, exiled Dagobert to Ireland where he may have lived at the abbey of Slane[413]. The Liber Historiæ Francorum names "filium eius [=Sighiberto rege] parvolum…Daygobertum" when recording that maior domus Grimoald had him tonsured and exiled with "Didonemque Pectavensem urbis episcopum in Scocia"[414]. He was brought to France [2 Apr/1 Jul] 676 by maior domus Wulfoald and Queen Chimnehildis, his mother, in opposition to King Theoderich III and maior domus Ebroin. After a brief period of conflict, it was agreed that King Theoderich should retain Neustria and Burgundy while Dagobert succeeded as DAGOBERT II King of the Franks in Austrasia. "Dagobertus rex Francorum" names "genitor noster Sigibertus rex" in his charter dated 1 Aug 677[415]. He was murdered on the orders of maior domus Ebroin.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/MEROVINGIANS.htm

The suspect line goes

1. Dagobert II
2. Siegbert IV
3. Siegbert V
4. Bera III
5. Guillaume
6. Bera IV
7. Argila
8. Bera V
9. Hilderic
10. Siegbert VI
11. Guillaume II
12. Guillaume III
13. Arnaud
14. Bera VI
15. Siegbert VII

Medlands over Wikipedia: Siegbert IV, count of Razès (Fictitious Person) - locked relationship as NOT the son of Dagobert. (I might have locked in erroneous spouses or children at the same time, though.)

On the suspect line - which men are completely fictional?

As far as I can tell, all of the suspect line are fictional. A couple of them have a real counterpart in an unrelated family.

Agnès de Razès (Fictitious) disconnected as wife of  Hugues II "the Kind" de Lusignan

Source: Painter, Sidney. "The Lords of Lusignan in the Eleventh and Twelfth Centuries." Speculum, Vol. 32, No. 1. (Jan., 1957), pp 27–47.
www.jstor.org/stable/2849244 the name of the wife of Hugh II of Lusignan is not given 

Hugues I Plantard, count of Razès (Fictitious Person) shows as father of Jean I, lord of Joinville

The first Joinville I see however is https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Étienne_de_Vaux_(seigneur_de_Joinvil...

This site racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Joinville looks like a graphical representation of a book http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k31550r

The Geni tree is sourced from freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cummingsofscgen/Genealogy%20of%20the%20Evans/n632.htm#17384 

Anyway I think "Jean" needs to be disconnected from parents to isolate out the Counts de Raz?

That Hugues I Plantard is the pivot. The ancestor of the Joinvilles has been welded on to the fake Siegbert VII. So has his "sister" Agnes who married Hugues II de Lusignan.