Liudolf I "the Great", duke of Saxony

Sorry I meant add Bruno as Liudolf's father in case I am wrong.

In my opinion is Graf Liudolf von Sachsen <806-866, the sohn of Graf Bruno IIi von Sachsen and his wive Oda (Addida) von Merseburg ±780-840.
Everard van Dijk.

Here's how you can analyze a question like this without too much effort.

First, look at Medlands. Medlands is a very good, academic quality source. It strives to cite only original sources and to ignore all the fluff and fakes that have accumulated over the years. Further, it is an ongoing project that is constantly improving.

So, for this family:
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXONY.htm#Liudolfdied866B

We see that Bruno Billung, Graf in Sachsen (d. 880) is the son of Liudolf I "the Great", Duke of Saxony (d. 866) and his wife Oda. And, we get a citation that tells us the relationship comes from Annalista Saxo (mid 12th century), which says "Brun et Otto nostri fideles comites…[et] Liutolf genitor eorum" (Bruno and Otto, our loyal companions ... and Liutolf their father). That looks good. There are other citations that describe other relationships but we can ignore them for now.

Then we see this Liudolf (d. 866) is the son of someone named Bruno and an unknown wife. This information comes from Gandersheimer Reimchronik (mid 13th century).

Something to notice here is that we're getting pretty far away from sources that were contemporary to these people. Liudolf died in 864 but the information about his father comes from something written 400 years later. So, accept that provisionally but with a mental note that someone, somewhere, some day is going to argue about it.

Further, Medlands does not connect this Bruno to an earlier Bruno in the same area. Medlands says our Bruno is one of three brothers, parents unknown, but (very important) the primary source for this information has not been identified. Medlands also says it is assumed (uh oh) our Bruno was a relative of the earlier Bruno, and he was maybe his son or maybe the relationship was through Eckbert's mother.

So here you would provisionally draw a line on Geni. This is not real. This is speculation. Maybe good speculation. Certainly worth putting in a Geni note. But not good enough (yet) to connect on Geni.

After all this, you might think so more research is worthwhile. No one says Medlands is the final authority on anything.

So, the second thing you could do is check Wikipedia. Wikipedia is far less reliable than Medlands, but Wikipedia has the advantage that it might lead to other quality sources.

And, bear in mind here that Wikipedia often provides a good balance to Medlands. Medlands doesn't have everything and Wikipedia has too much. Wikipedia's primary fault is that it often has bad relationships because it isn't using quality sources.

When I check Wikipedia, I always check 3 different versions. That helps offset the problems. For someone like Liudolf, I would normally check English Wikipedia, German Wikipedia, and French Wikipedia.

English Wikipedia says Liudolf was son of Markgraf Brun or Brunhart and his wife Gisla von Verla. It cites German Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liudolf,_Duke_of_Saxony

German Wikipedia says "Liudolfs Abkunft ist nicht sicher zu bestimmen. Seine Eltern sollen der historisch sonst nicht fassbare Markgraf Brun (oder Brunhard) der Jüngere, seine Mutter dessen Frau Gisla von Verla sein. Nach anderen Quellen hieß seine Mutter Addida und war eine Tochter des sächsischen dux Ekbert und der Heiligen Ida von Herzfeld ."

-- Liudolf is supposedly son of an elusive Markgraf Brun by Gisla von Verla, but also said to be son of Addida, a woman whose father was Ekbert (the man Medlands identified as son of the earlier Bruno. (Also, Liudolf is considered to be the progenitor of this family, which means he is the earliest certain ancestor.)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liudolf_(Sachsen)

French Wikipedia gives Liudolf's wife and children but no mention of his parents or ancestry except to say he is the earliest documented ancestor of this family.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liudolf_de_Saxe

So, we see a couple of things. Taken together, these articles show us there is no firm information about Liudolf's ancestry. Just as Medlands said.

But the real "gold" here is a statement in German Wikipedia:

Liudolf als Stammvater des Geschlechtes galt bereits als „Stammesherzog“, dem seine Söhne Brun und Otto in dieser Position folgten. Die jüngere Forschung beurteilt dies zurückhaltender. [1] Die Entstehung des „jüngeren Stammesherzogtums“ in Sachsen in der zweiten Hälfte des neunten Jahrhunderts ist heute Gegenstand intensiver Neubewertung.

-- In essence, historians have traditionally regarded Liudolf as the stem-father of a tribal duchy, whose sons Bruno and Otto succeeded him, but recent historians are more cautious. "The origin of the "younger duchy" in Saxony in the second half of the ninth century is now the subject of intense re-evaluation." (citing Gerd Althoff, Die Ottonen. Königsherrschaft ohne Staat. 3., durchgesehene Auflage, Kohlhammer, Stuttgart ua, 2013, p. 25).

What is going on here is something that is very common. In the 19th century historians generally thought all the later Saxon leaders were descendants of Widukind, the great Saxon hero who resisted Charlemagne. Now, it's clear many of them probably weren't. That leaves the traditional genealogies in a mess, while the experts take time to sort out what is real and what isn't.

So. After following all those tortuous paths, who was Margrave Bruno?

He's clearly suffered from some bad merges but he seems to be the mysterious Bruno and intended to be the father of Liudolf I "the Great", Duke of Saxony.

He shouldn't be son of Wichbert. Medlands does not list a son of Wichbert named Bruno. See http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SAXONY.htm#_Toc414804493

And we've already seen the profile goes too far when it calls him "Descendant of Wittekind".

Checking the revision history, I see they were disconnected just a few weeks ago. Rather than just re-connect them, we need to get some clarification on the reason for the disconnect.

I've always look at all the different languages of Wikipedia as you mentioned Justin. have built my Ancestry.com tree using the sources from Wikipedia and Geni. I do not trust trees and hints from Ancestry. At present I am in the Carolingian Empire area of my tree .. That's when I looked at Geni for help to build Charlemagne's ancestors.

I found a tree on the internet that said Bruno II, duke of Saxony-Engern was Bruno III 's father

His profile on Geni Bruno

Wikipedia page I cant find

But I did get a Millennium File record from Ancestry.

Millennium File
View Record
Name
Count In Saxon-engern Berno

Gender
Male

Birth Date
0756

Father
Warlord of Saxons In Engern Bruno I

Spouse
Haslala

Children
Count In Saxony Bruno

Household Members

Name

Age

Count In Saxon-engern Berno
Haslala

my other source was Web: Netherlands, GenealogieOnline Trees Index, 1000-2015
View Record
Name
Bruno II Engern

Gender
m

Birth Date
0756

Birth Place
Maine et Loire, Anjou, Pays De La Loire, France

Death Date
0813

Death Place
Sachsen, Germany

Death Age
57

Spouse
Hasilda Von Westphalia

Children
Bernard Harcourt

URL
https://www.genealogieonline.nl/en/stamboom-petra-limburg/P8954.php

Resist those sites with an iron will. Deny you've ever seen them with the same fervor you would use for denying you visit opium dens ;)

What you are looking for is good secondary sources that cite primary sources.

There are relatively few of those. We have a short list in Geni's Medieval Resources Online project:
https://www.geni.com/projects/Medieval-Resources-Online/27118

If you are specifically interested in the ancestors of Charlemagne, there is also a Geni project for that. It will save you quite a bit of grief -- 14 proven ancestors of Charlemagne
https://www.geni.com/projects/14-proven-ancestors-of-Charlemagne/30...

Yes, but how? will it save us from grieves when we got this result?

https://www.geni.com/projects/14-proven-ancestors-of-Charlemagne/pe...
Saint Itta of Nivelles is your 36th great grandmother.
Pepin of Landen is your 36th great grandfather.
Saint Dode of Metz is your 36th great grandmother.
Saint Arnoul, bishop of Metz is your 36th great grandfather.
Saint Beggue of Austrasia is your 35th great grandmother.
Ansigisel of Metz, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia is your 35th great grandfather.
Bertrade de Prüm is your 34th great grandmother.
Martin de Laon is your 34th great grandfather.
Alpais is your 34th great grandmother.
Pépin II of Héristal, Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia is your 34th great grandfather.
Charibert, count of Laon is your 33rd great grandfather.
Rotrude is your 33rd great grandmother.
Charles Martel "the Hammer" is your 33rd great grandfather.
Bertha Broadfoot of Laon, Queen of the Franks is your 32nd great grandmother.
Pépin III, King of the Franks is your 32nd great grandfather.
Charlemagne is your 31st great grandfather.

LOL Justin ... Ancestry is ok IF you only use it to build your own tree yourself like I've done . I don't use the hints from that site for the most part. I've seen to many trees that are so messed up that It's stupid .. And I cant believe members pay big money at lest I payfor the full deluxe package yearly. They are affiliated with WeiWasWei and other reputable site now. So now I can get the records of birth , death and many other things. But I do not follow trees on that site. NO WAY!

Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson I don't understand your concern and who is thatrelationship list for?

Geni has members on Ancestry too . The same information from Geni is on Ancestry too from some members I've gotten to know. They've also shared trees on WebRoots.com

Dorothy, the trick here is to maximize your time. There are good trees on the Internet but how do you know they are good if they don't cite primary sources and vetted secondary sources?

You don't. They're just wasting your time. They're evil.

I laugh and laugh and laugh about people who download info from Geni and upload it to another site. They've missed the whole point of Geni. On Geni the info is being constantly changed and improved. Essentially what they've done is frozen their tree at one moment in time, so they've missed all the updates and corrections. It's like they want to be sure they're wrong.

Ulf, it will save you from grief if you use it to identify Charlemagne's ancestors.

If won't save you from grief if you've got a fake line back to Charlemagne.

It won't save you from grief if you're looking for ancestors of Odin or Jesus.

If won't save you from grief if you find a bad merge and don't do anything to fix it.

Justin remember I told you that I have a cousin that works for the Historical Society in Leeuwarden.. I built most of my tree on Geni by merging with what he added on Geni over the years and also other curators and what they've added... I also have an other cousin that's made a tree on web roots and ancestry.. He got all his info from the same place my other cousin works. So I followed his trees. For my Husbands side of his tree, I was given a family tree printed out from my mother in law. Her cousin living in the Netherlands went from Church to church and the same place my cousin works doing it the hard way.
For my grandparents both sides I was told by my aunt from her memory some of her grandparents names and got matches found on Geni . From there I was able to go further.
My cousin directed me to Wiewaswie and all those other sites to help me build my biological ancestors leading to many of the MP profiles. So I am very sure what's on the tree is very correct. But lately I've notice new members adding doubles or siblings that don't belong on some branches. That's another matter for discussion that should be addressed.

As for this topic of discussion, I'll let you and other experts take over. Not all of my relatives branch up to Liudolf I "the Great", duke of Saxony so I cant rely on them after that point.

I didn't mean they downloaded what was on Geni to another tree site.. They added the profiles in the first place on Geni and then I 'm guessing uploaded it to web roots and maybe other sites.
Not everyone relies on "other trees" to build their own. I am lucky and I know where the matches I get on Geni they got their information from... so I do trust them.
There are very ignorant members that DO NOT research anything and add garbage to Geni. that we can agree on.

For the parts of the tree that are royals and Nobles ... I used Wikipedia and other reliable sources... for example . http://www.stinseninfriesland.nl/CamstraStateIIWirdum.htm That page is just one of many I found.

Dorothy Jane, I don't understand your thought that I must be concerned, I guess that humor are not as easily understandable for everyone, some people take it literally, whilst some can see through the words and understand the point in it self, and lastly, "your" in my text above refers to me.

ok

Dear members of the discusion,
It is Germany and there you need the file: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/mittelalter-genealogie.de/_voelkerwande... oder similarity files. Important is the name: Hlawitschka, Eduard and his book: "Zur Herkunft der Liudolfinger und zu einigen Corveyer Geschichtsquelle" Seite 147-150.
For a good translation you need to be verry good in the German as well the English language.
In the Wikipedia files you find not the final answers.
Greatings Everard.

Everard. can you please re-post your link It's not working. Thank you

http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/ekbertiner/ida_d...

Maybe this one are the same as that one he posted?

Thanks, Everard.

Yes, Genealogie Mittelalter is a good site. It meets the criteria because it is compiled from qualify secondary sources and it cites those sources.

http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/

And yes, Eduard Hlawitschka is a very important scholar in this area.

But we need to make some important points here.

First, medieval scholarship is international. You should not consult only German sources for medieval German genealogy. That’s a very regrettable, nationalist myth. You will find there are more German scholars (for example) doing medieval German genealogy but there are also great scholars from other countries. Hlawitschka is good because he’s Hlawitschka, not because he’s German.

One of the advantages of consulting other sources is that you will begin to see whether the sources you are using have a nationalistic bias.

That’s not a problem with Hlawitschka, but Hlawitschka is old (1974). There is much more current work. Forty years is a long time in the academic world. The facts don’t change, but perspectives do. There are many younger scholars who have built on Hlawitschka’s work.

Second, when you are doing medieval genealogy on Geni one of the main things to look for is whether the experts agree or disagree on the line. In later generations there will be universal agreement. In the early generations there is sometimes much disagreement.

Our goal on Geni is to trace the lines back only as far as the primary sources support the line, and to stop when we reach the point where the experts disagree.

In the case of Liudolf we’re relatively safe. Genealogie Mittelalter stops with Liudolf. We have a source from Medlands that gives the name of Liudolf’s father. It’s a judgment call whether we stop with Liudolf or his father Bruno, but we know with absolute certainty we should not go past Bruno.

http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/liudolfinger_ott...

Some links to Genealogie Mittelalter:

Main page: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/

Dynasties: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/dynastie.htm

Liudolfinger: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/liudolfinger_ott...

Liudolfinger table: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/genealogie-mittelalter/liudolfinger_ott...

Same/different page for Ida: http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/mittelalter-genealogie/_voelkerwanderun...

I'll check the Online Medieval Resources project. If we don't already have these I'll add them.

On the Online Medieval Resources project site I've noticed there is no references to the kings / Dukes of Friesland Their blood line from what I've read on many reliable source sites, connects them to the Saxony and Martel families through marriages of the van Friesland daughters.

The data for the German Adel are to be found in: 1. The German Stammtafeln always the latest edition. 2. The books of historical scientist Eduard Hlawitschka. 3. www.mittelalter-genealogie.de . Translations by Google from German to English is insufficient. For Gisla von Verla as the mother of Count von Sachsen Liudolf 806-866, I see no basis in Germany. We need the help of a German historical scientist for a good end of the discussion.

Hallo Justin and other members of the discussion,
To day I have placed in source libary below Ida von Herzfeld or Ida von Franken 720-820 the complete data file in the original German language in xxx.txt format from:
http://www.manfred-hiebl.de/mittelalter-genealogie/_voelkerwanderun...

Great. If you see something on Geni you think needs to be changed, let us know.

Liudolf I "the Great", duke of Saxony is my grandson Joshua's 32nd great grandfather.