Multiple surnames

I'm almost thinking there needs to be a discussion on these scenarios, and also there are "culture specific" solutions; e.g., even in American English, following the English Common Law, Dutch communities for instance might have retained their customs (we show with the multi name modules).

I can answer for my own practice "in American English.".

- a woman who has married more than once (and used their husband's surnames)

Last name = last name at event death, other surnames besides the original entered in AKA

- a woman who had a name change after birth and then married (and used her husband's surnames)

Same as above, however could use the language modules if the name was in a different language (my grandmother's case)

- where titles should be entered ie Rabbi, Dr, Sir

Display name

- a man who had a name change after birth

Easy! Original name = birth surname; Current name = last name

- names with multiple spelling variations ie SOFFER, SOPHER (where one branch thinks the spelling is one way and another branch thinks it is another way - and no source documents can be found to prove)

The family should choose one, alternate spellings in AKA. Could do one spelling (older?) in birth & another in last name, I've done that, but it's a "guess" so not a good solution.

Whatever they decide, do not stuff alternate spellings into the last name field, they'll never match & family will not find each other.

Some things I run into that give me a bit of grief:

1. It's not a good idea to put different spelling variants of the same surname in the Last Name and Birth Name fields unless there has been a formal name change. It implies a level of consistency and certainty in spelling that did not exist until after about 1750-1850. Better to use one standardized form, then put all variants in the AKA. (Remember that if there's really no source, then it's a fake.)

2. It's not a good idea to assume that all English-speaking women used a husband's surname. It works fairly well in British colonies after about 1600, but in England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland there were areas where women did not use married names even down to do about 1800, and certainly before about 1600 there are very many exceptions to the general rule. Best to consult the sources, not try to work from a rule of thumb.

3. On Scottish territorial designations, remember that the designation is part of the surname. It's used by the eldest son and by all daughters, but not by younger sons.

4. Remember that British woman drop their courtesy titles if they marry a man with a title. Lady Mary is no longer called Lady if she becomes a Countess.

My main requirement is making sure that the profiles show up in the searches so that they can be found.

Put variants in the AKA and you should be fine. One of the problems I see is that some people remove variants they don't like, forgetting that other users might be searching exactly those spellings.

Does entering Rabbi Isaac Cohen in the display field cause Geni to sort different than Isaac Cohen? I find most duplicates by them sorting together. If Rabbi Isaac Cohen sorts under R and Isaac Cohen sorts under I, it is harder to find them.

As far as I know display name is NOT used for searches.
I'm not sure about the sorting (on which page?), but I suspect if there is a page where there is a sorting on display name, the sorting would be different.
If you want to put extra information in the display field to make a difference in that field for people with the same names, it would probably be safer(regarding the sort) to add that info after the names.

Why can't management simple give us some specific guidance as to how the sort works and what THEY would recommend.

Or is that just too easy ??????

Display name is just one text field, so it is sorted as text. I'm not sure about which page you are taking. The search result page?
The question would be how it would be sorted regarding profiles with no display name. It looks like those are sorted on first name, middle name, birth surname, lastname, suffix and dates (partly guessing).
I would expect display name to sort with the combination of the name fields, that is why it would suggest to put extra info at the end of the display name field.

If you want to be sure ask Mike Stangel if he can give some information.

Rules for using the fields are a bit more complicated and are probably language, region and time specific.

The multiple languages are very nice, but it would be even nicer to have the possibility to have the ability to changes names on the timeline of a profile.

For the last 2 centuries profiles

For women who married multiple times I have been adding Smith - Jones into the Surname field.
By doing this it shows up in
- Surname lists for Smith and for Jones
- searches for Smith and for Jones
- shows on spouses that she had multiple husbands (which helps when doing research as the second marriage might be under the maiden name or might be under the first marriage name)

For alternate spellings I have done Elsas/Elsasz
By doing this it shows up in
- Surname lists for Elsas and Elsasz
- Surname searchs for Elsas and for Elsasz
- allows researches who spell a name differently to find their profile with their spelling.
I use this one particularly when I am merging two profiles that spell the name differently - This way the profile manager does not feel high-jacked when suddenly all their entries have changed names.

Hi Richard (Rick) Gary Simon, the issue isn't GENI, the issue is that people enter data differently depending on how they like to see it or how their software .

For example I am used to seeing Leanne MINNY (nee OWENS), others would enter it Leanne OWENS MINNY or Leanne MINNY OWENS or Leanne (OWENS) MINNY or Leanne MINNY (OWENS) or Leanne MINNY (was OWENS) or Leanne OWENS (now MINNY) or Leanne MINNY or Leanne OWENS. And all of that is before you consider I have been married twice.

None are technically incorrect - it is just that on a collaborate system, it makes more sense that we enter data the same way.

The programmers at GENI probably had an idea of how data would be entered (and programmed accordingly) but I would imagine that the actual use is very different particularly as you cross countries and centuries and cultures.

Private User Please read this.

https://www.geni.com/projects/Coalition-for-the-Standardization-of-...
Conventions/1357

You can control how you wish to see your tree from your account settings.

Hi Eldon, I know the project - it was where I started the discussion in the first place - asking for it to be updated.

Private User Well that is what I follow and Mike Stangel Has said to use the fields as labeled

Hi Eldon, the project description could use updating for the different scenarios. Please see my initial comments in this discussion.

- a woman who has married more than once (and used their husband's surnames)
Use the last husbands name, the others will show on her profile unless they are hidden

- a woman who had a name change after birth and then married (and used her husband's surnames)
Is this because of an adoption? Otherwise use the AKA field

- where titles should be entered ie Rabbi, Dr, Sir

Titles go in the display Name field Dr john Doe M.D.

- a man who had a name change after birth
Birth Name in Birth Name Field, last name in Last Name field with explanation in "About"

- names with multiple spelling variations ie SOFFER, SOPHER (where one branch thinks the spelling is one way and another branch thinks it is another way - and no source documents can be found to prove)

The AKA field.

as Job Waterreus mentions naming conventions are time and place dependent. In fact he was co-author of a convention used for Dutch profiles, see https://www.geni.com/documents/view/profile-6000000009895495819?doc...
In the Netherlands the government only uses the name assigned at birth, ever since the civil registry was introduced in 1811 by Napoleon. An official name change is only possible in exceptional cases by a complicated legal procedure.
People do NOT change their name because of marriage, but spouses are free to use each other's surnames (or a combination of both) in communications with third parties. In this sense it is not illegal for married women to adopt their husband's name. Their passport however will always show the maiden name, but on request a remark can be added: "spouse of xxxx"
On top of that, many people have multiple first names (which are duly listed in their passport and are a horror for foreign airlines not used to that) and in daily life use a different (colloquial) first name. My own name is a clear example: I have three first names (inherited from my two grandfathers); the contraction of the three initials happens to be easily pronouncable (and is even an existing name in its own right) and was chosen by my parents as colloquial name

Thanks Ard van Bergen for explaining the Dutch situation.

One thing I would like to ask of all Geni users is to specify the birth surname on all profiles and try to use a single spelling variant there (Please put other spelling variants in the AKA field). That way the search will find it and search will match all name parts of the AKA field against it, so name variations will also be found.

Geni search has difficulty with something like Jans(s)en (and as far as i know also with Jansen/Janssen), so please put a single name variant (e.g. Jansen) in a name field and put the other variations in the AKA field (you could put Jans(s)en in the AKA field to match exactly that, but it as far as I know it still does not match Jansen or Janssen).

The reason for putting single spelling variants in name fields is that the search will try to match all name parts of AKA fields with the name fields of your profile. If you put spelling variations in name fields that makes it a lot less likely that there will be a match.

Google uses other techniques for searching so if the profile is public and has spelling variations in a name field, Google may still be able to find it. So when you cannot find a connection using Geni search, it may useful to try Google (put site:geni.com after your search string to search only Geni e.g. search with Google for Jan Jansen site:geni.com and Google may find profiles with name variations in the name fields)
If you put spelling variations in a name field you will make it difficult for the search when trying to match name parts
You could put something like Jans(s)en or Jansen/Janssen in the display name field, but that gets complicated if there are variants in other parts of the name as well.

I don't think geni has a problem with Janssen/Jansen - the searches work fine with Elsas/Elszasz.

Ray, I think it is a cultural thing.

Leanne,

It depends a bit on what you mean with a problem.
Geni will still find it when you search on Elsas or Elsasz
Then what you search for is present in the name field.

But I'm less sure about it finding matches for that profile.
I that case the name field Elsas/Elsasz is used to search for other profiles.
That probably will NOT match with Elsasz and may be also not with Elsas (it will match with Elsas/Elsasz however).
It is some time go I did some tests and Geni updates its programming from time to time so may be it will work. Mike would be able to tell you.

I think all of this conversation is just so much speculation. - none of you seem to know exactly what GENI algorithms do or EXACTLY how they work !!! Which i would expect since it appears that none of you are the programmers.

I ask again, why cannot GENI management step up and tell us clearly what works best with THE GENI SYSTEM, and then some descending order, the effectiveness of different listings. Then EACH of us would be free to make our choices of what we list .......

Hi Richard, are you able to ask geni support? I can't as I am an unpaid member, but you should be able to as a pro member.

Hi Job,
Do you mean in tree matches and smart matches?
I will have a look at mine and see if any have matches.
Leanne

Like I said, if you wish to know exactly how it works ask Mike.

He did some explaining in these discussions but they are not recent (search is changed from time to time to make it better):
https://www.geni.com/discussions/85255
https://www.geni.com/discussions/102141
https://www.geni.com/discussions/145691
https://www.geni.com/discussions/98212
https://www.geni.com/discussions/145996
https://www.geni.com/discussions/142700 (so it seems the search also uses the display name field, but matching does not)

Another discussion on the name fields (what to do when some part is unknown):
https://www.geni.com/discussions/148675?page=1
Names and the problems for merging (are profiles really for the same person):
https://www.geni.com/discussions/145294?page=1

But you would have to remember that even if Mike would answer here he could only explain how it works at the moment and how they hope to improve it in the future.
Geni will change again. Those changes will be based on how we use the system The way we use Geni will change again based on the changes in Geni.

Leanne,

Yes that is correct. Tree and record matches use the information from the profile fields (it uses more then just the name fields, but what you put in the name fields will have a big impact).

For those that do not want to read als those discussions a quick summery (based on a 2010 discussion):

FirstName" + "MiddleName" will match "FirstName MiddleName" + "" because, as Mike said, the separate middle name is ignored, so the match you get is "FirstName" will match ""FirstName MiddleName"

So technically (assuming last name and other rules Mike mentioned match)

✔ "John" will match "John Doe"
✘ "John Doe" will not match "John"
✘ "John Doe" will not match "John" + "Doe"

but unfortunately
✔ "John" will also match "Saint John"

and even worse
✔ "John" + "Edvard" will match "John Doe"
and the same with all John's with anything in the middle name field

Hopefully this will have changed some between then and now.

Leanne,

I have big geni issues wth name fields like Janssen/Jansen. You might find them in search OK, but "they do not match" in geni or MyHeritage. So they make my record and smart match subscriptions useless.

Please put spelling variations in AKA.

Does AKA show up in the searches?

If I put John in first name and ELSAS in last name and ELSZASZ in AKA in the profile.

Will it show up if I put John in the first name and ELSZASZ in the surname field in the search?