Ragnvald "Heidumhære" Óláfsson, King of Vestfold

Alex Moes C

4/7/2016 at 10:41 PM

The Curator Note for Ragnvald Óláfsson, King of Vestfold reads "Ragnvald Olafsson, NOT Gudrødsson".

This suggests to me that users have previously altered the ancestry of Ragnvald to match the Fragmentary Annals of Ireland which names "Gofraid/Gothfraid, son of Ragnall, son of Gothfraid Conung, son of Gofraid" in reference to the father of Imar and Amlaib and Auisie.

The question i have, which i can't find an answer to in the profile Abouts, is why do we think Ragnvald Olafsson is the father of Gotfraid Ragnallsson when the only record we seem to have for the relationship shows that Gotfraid/Gudrod's father's name should be Ragnall Gudrodsson?

Are the Annals wrong? If so I think we need to explain that in the Abouts of both men.

Charles Cawley comments:-

"Gofraid/Gothfraid" cannot be linked to any of the main contemporary Norwegian rulers who are shown in the document NORWAY KINGS, although it should be borne in mind that the government of Norway was fragmented at the time with numerous local rulers in different parts of the country who probably all referred to themselves as kings.

Now Wikipedia (who i am loathe to rely on) use the words "petty king" to describe Rognvald Olafsson so perhaps he is not important enough to be on Cawley's radar? Except that on the NORWAY KINGS Cawley does indeed list Rognvald Olafsson without indication what so ever that there might even exist speculation in academic circles that Rognvald Olafsson is Gotfraid's father.

Unless there is another source that i am unaware of or a tradition of scholarship that links Gotfraid to Ragnvald Olafsson I think we should sever the relationship and give Gotfraid a new set of ancestors.

Alex Moes C

4/7/2016 at 11:47 PM

Guðrøðr Ragnvaldsson/Gofraid, King of Lochlann
Ivarr Gudrodson, king of Dublin

Private User

4/8/2016 at 12:27 PM

I think you should sever the relationship

Sharon Doubell C

5/1/2018 at 1:17 PM

I agree. There appear to be no sources to validate his father as King Olaf «Geirstad-Alf» Gudrødsson, King of Vestfold

Traditional sources differ as to whether Ragnvald Heidumhære was the son of Ragnar Lodbrok or of Olaf Geirstad-Alf.

The 13th century account in Heimskringla, which uses Ynglingatal as a source, makes Ragnvald a cousin of Harald Fairhair.

A dubious, later pedigree attributes to Ragnvald a daughter, Åsa Ragnvaldsdatter (Aseda Rognvaldsdatter), who married Eystein Ivarsson. It is through this line that Ragnvald Heidumhære is a purported ancestor of William the Conqueror (and subsequent British royal houses).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnvald_Heidumh%C3%A6re

Sharon Doubell C

5/1/2018 at 1:23 PM

Cutting links to his father and his son Guðrøðr Ragnvaldsson/Gofraid, King of Lochlann pending sources or disagreement.

Martin Emanuel PRO

5/1/2018 at 6:34 PM

Hi Sharon
I sent you some references on another discussion page for Halfdan Ragnvald

Martin Nordstrom

Harald Tveit Alvestrand C

5/1/2018 at 11:41 PM

Ragnvald Heidumhære is an Ynglingesoga king, documented in sections 49 and 50 (the last 2 paragraphs of Ynglingesoga). His father was Olav Geirstad-alv (introduced in paragraph 48).
The text in Ynglingesoga desn't mention any children; I've been waiting for someone to show up with a source for Aseda for years, but no such thing came up.

People kept confusing him with other Ragnvalds, which is why the curator note.

Private User

5/20/2023 at 9:56 PM

A source for Åseda is:
Ashley, Mike. The Mammoth Book of British Kings and Queens. London: Robinson, 1999.
Images of Charts 10 and 27 are added to the Media section.
These appear to be based on Royal British genealogies.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand C

5/21/2023 at 9:48 PM

I'm not sure that counts as a source, though. I found this review on Amazon:

"rom a quick glance in a store, I was impressed by the book's apparent scope; once I owned it I could see, based on a good general knowledge of British royal history, how poor, undocumented, and second-hand the information was. Ashley gives roughly the same weight to legends as to actual historical figures: perhaps not surprising, now that I find he's published many other "Mammoth" books of fantasy literature but nothing else dealing with historical facts. It's hard to imagine that anyone involved in publishing or marketing it understood that scholarship needs to have at least some role in works of this kind. Because I don't believe in trashing books, however sorry their content, I donated my copy to a local book sale. If you care about history, skip this book to avoid a similar disappointment."

Alex Moes C

5/22/2023 at 7:13 AM

I have no idea about Mike Ashley or his writings, but the Royal British Genealogies are known frauds :)

Private User

5/23/2023 at 2:13 AM

I am aware it is not a primary source. I am aware it could be an error. I nevertheless think it is likely to be correct.
One of the reasons is that Åseda is said to have had a son, Ragnvald, Earl of Møre, who appears to be named after her father (his grandfather).
Another reason is that her daughter Svanhild had a son called Olav Geirstadalv, who appears to be named after Ragnvald Heidumhære’s father Olav Geirstadalv, King of Vestfold. That would be quite odd if he was not a direct descendant. If Svanhild’s son Olav Geirstadalv was a direct descendant of Ragnvald Heidumhære’s father Olav Geirstadalv, this would also explain why King Harald Fairhair made Svanhild’s son Olav Geirstadalv King of Vestfold.
A third reason is that Ragnvald, Earl of Møre, being a descendant (grandson) of King Harald Fairhair's cousin Ragnvald Heidumhære would make the Earl a rival to the throne, which helps explain why his son Gange-Rolv was banished, and why the Earl ended up being killed by the King's sons.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand C

5/23/2023 at 5:40 AM

That's Ragnvald Eysteinsson, Earl of Møre - for a Viking, he is rather well documented by Snorre - his mother is listed as "NN", with a note in his profile that says "Mother: Asdis (Ascrida) (undocumented)" - I think you have just uncovered where that particular name came from.

Ragnvald and Olav are common names in Norway - it is a grave error to think that two persons of the same name have to be the same person - I've spent considerable cycles on keeping Olav «Geirstad» Digerbein Haraldsson, king of Vestfold and Vingulmark and his granduncle King Olaf «Geirstad-Alf» Gudrødsson, King of Vestfold apart - despite them being two generations apart, people kept merging them just because they shared both a name and a nickname.

I think we need better sources in order to make the linkage.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand C

5/23/2023 at 5:49 AM

I added a note in Ragnvald's "About me" (English version) about the Mammoth Book's claim that his mother was named "Aseda". Nice to have a link to where that theory came from, so that people can either see it as "already discussed" or say "my source is better than that".

Private User

5/24/2023 at 2:32 AM

I know. But Olav Geirstadalv was named after his great-great-grandfather, who had the same name. The line would be Olav, Ragnvald, Åseda, Svanhild, Olav. Harald Hairfair was not a direct descendant of Olav Geirstadalv, the last King of Vestfold, so Ragnvald and his family had a stronger claim to that throne than Harald. This was why Harald married Svanhild, to improve his claim to that throne. And this was why he felt threatened by Ragnvald.

Private User

5/24/2023 at 2:38 AM

The charts are on page 59 and 64 of this preprint. https://www.academia.edu/49511526/The_Raven_Banner_Revisited

Harald Tveit Alvestrand C

5/24/2023 at 2:58 PM

There's no evidence in Snorre that Harald Hårfagre felt threatened by Ragnvald; Ragnvald was (as far as I remember) one of Harald's trusted lieutenants.

We don't know who Olav was named for. It might have been his granduncle, the brother of his grandfather Halvdan Svarte. The sources do not say.

According to https://nbl.snl.no/Olav_Geirstadalv, "Geirstad" was likely a farm name.

"The Raven Banner Revisited" has "The Mammoth Book of British Kings" as the first entry in its "Literature" list; that does not speak well for the author's ability to critically select references.

Harald Tveit Alvestrand C

5/25/2023 at 1:09 AM

(re Ragnvald: my mistake - I was confusing Ragnvald "Heidumhere" with Ragnvald Mørejarl)

Remi Trygve Pedersen C

5/25/2023 at 2:53 PM

It's more or less a common understanding that Vestfold was never ruled by Harald Fairhair but was ruled by the danish kings all through his reign, so he could probably never have made Svanhild's son Olav Geirstadalf (if Harald ever got a son with a woman named Svanhild) King of Vestfold, since Harald never ruled Vestfold.

Private User

5/26/2023 at 5:33 AM

Remi Trygve Pedersen

Olav «Geirstad» Digerbein Haraldsson, king of Vestfold and Vingulmark

His son
Kong af Viken Tryggve Olavsson

Tryggve Olavsson var en norsk småkonge som levde på 900-tallet. Han var far til Olav Tryggvason. Ifølge Snorre var Tryggve etterkommer av Harald Hårfagre, men dette regnes som svært usikkert.

FAMILIE
Foreldre: Angivelig småkongen Olav Haraldsson; morens navn er ikke kjent.

https://snl.no/Tryggve_Olavsson

Så till saken Remi, "etterkommer av Harald Hårfagre, men dette regnes som svært usikkert", det betyder i klartext att det som ifrågasätts är om Harald Hårfager verkligen var far till Olav Haraldsson, det finns inget som ifrågasätter att Olov var far till Tryggve. Är det verkligen så svårt att kunna förstå vad som ifrågasätts och var det isåfall borde ha klippts i ledet?

Ragnvald "Heidumhære" Óláfsson, King of Vestfold - discinnect Gotfraid

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