Erik Guttormsson - Eric Guttormsson has wrong mother in lineage

I think that two generations are missing here.
Östman Gudfastsson lived about 1080-1140 and was married to Eldrid Jonsdotter 1100-1140. Their son jarl Guttorm Östmansson lived about 1120-1140 and was married to Ingrid Guttormsdotter 1136-1180. They had a son ? who probably lived 1160-1210 with an unknown wife. Their son Guttorm lived 1200-? with an unknown wife. Their son Erik Guttormsson was born about 1240.

@erik guttormsson

One of the profile masters on Ingrid Guttormsdatter profile stated that there was a Guttorm Guttormsson as a son not Erik, and that Erik is actually the son of Guttorm Guttormsson...so is there two Erik Guttormssons? I was tracing back from Dordi Olafsdatter a bit further down the line when we hit this logic bridge.

Thank you very much for the prompt check of the logic. I now have another path to check.
So far this Guttorm Guttormsson does not show up but Ulf Martinsson is looking for it.

Again, thank you!

One of the managers of Ingrid Guttormsdatter has made corrections that have made a bridge possible. Please all take a look.

I also played around with the obvious idea, that if just one generation, a father, were missing in between Guttorn Austmansson and Erik Guttormsson, then his name would be Guttorm Guttormsson, all of that again assuming Erik was a legit son of a Guttorm. Googling around, however, I found nothing. The Guttorm Austmansson's daughter Helena (b. aro. 1167) could easily be found, however.

Sten Waldo

Gutthorm Guttormsson

I created him, added all the information I could find, unfortunately someone had Erik also set up as wife to Christina Birgersdotter Folkunge and that would have been illegal, two brother would not married one and the same wife, because that would have been viewed as incest. If they actually were married to one and the same wife, that would have been extremely rare, also, the eventually first man to her were unknown.

Well, I must agree with Georg Ohlsson, that most likely 2 - and not 1 - generation were missing between Guttorm Austmansson and Erik Guttormsson. So I guess we better go on looking, oder?

/Sten

We should bear in mind, that the person who initially had set up this line just have made a plausible path, that were chronological impossible without adding of an extra profile in between Guttorm Austmannsson and "his" two sons Erik and Sigge. A man who died between circa 1176 - 1178 could not possible have sons that were born about 40-60 years later.

Sten Waldö The only thing we can be quite sure of is that Erik and Sigges fathers name was Guttorm, but feel free to see if you can find out more about which Guttorm he actually were, and yet again, he couldn't have been the same as Guttorm Austmannsson who at the best only could have been a grand or a great grandfather to them.

Ulf Ingvar Göte (vilket namn använder du dagligen?), fullständigt överens här! Men det krävs nog...sorry. English (I use 4 languages daily, at home as well as in business), which name do you use daily? Completely agree! But some real off line serious research possibly required to move further ahead here... something for the younger and thus more eager of our tree members IMO.

/Sten

I actually use all of my name here on Geni, for the most. When it comes to leave something for the younger, I hope that was a joke, since very few people under 30 today have what it takes, some claims that humanity are getting smarter and smarter every century, but I only notice the direct opposite, people are in general knuckleheads, 99% of the earth population have an IQ around 100, (a "normal" IQ are between 90-110), and that is not enough when it comes to advance thinking, analyzes and contextual conclusions. With the older ones step by step facing dementia, or just dies off, genealogy in the future will very rapidly become a huge mess, with more and more people adding totally illogical links where a son very well could have one or both parents born 100 years after the son, because that's what the source "GOOGLE" says. Every living person above 70 with their intellect intact know this, probably fear what will become of their legacy, all the hard work they and their forefather paved the ground with. I have said it before, I repeat myself, the future makes me scared of the dark.

Ulf, Georg, and Sten...I agree...basically we have a phrase here that youth is wasted on the young...I am a 60+ year old beat up old Norwegian American just trying to put together a small bit of our family history for my sons later on...I had heard some stories from aunts and uncles but they passed on, but only the dogged determination af a crusty old guy will get stuff moved...I hit a aroad block and you nice fellows stepped up to check it out too...we have a bit of a research issue I guess to keep going back in history for us as this is the best lineage I have. So if my trip stops at 1240, it is much better then I had when I started on my journey. By the way, we are all distant cousins so I will toast your efforts with a cold beer held high to salute you guys....best wishes to you all and thank you for your help!!!
@andrew gilbert; @guttorm guttormsson; @ingrid guttormsdatter; @guttorm austmannsson (Ostmansson)

Yeah, I just noticed the relation path between us Private and for a couple of centuries you have all this Guttorm repeating them selves just like a family name, the name tradition in the North were patronymic and a person for example name, Peter, had a son name Lars Petersson, he could have a son name Peter Larsson, then he could have a son named Lars Petersson, and it could sometimes repeat it self several times, never the less, you can only be sure on one forefathers name, but when we see strange or unusually names in one link, they do act like a warranty, that it actually could be true. I appreciate your long row of Guttormar!

Andrew Gilbert is Ulf Ingvar Göte Martinsson's 19th cousin twice removed!
http://www.geni.com/path/Ulf-Martinsson+is+related+to+Andrew-Gilber...

Ulf; Perhaps this may be a path, I found it on another site and I do not read Norske hardly at all, but I found an obscure mention of a third child born to Ingrid Guttormsson and Guttorm Austmannsson...It list's the N.N as the middle child between Helena and Sigge (youngest)..the source is
1. Abbrev NST 01:336
title-Norske Slektshistorisk Tidsskrift
Vol 1 Page pp 336-382
Author is Munthe, CM
Publication Oslo Cammermeyer Boghandel, 1928 p345, #121

Addidtionally N.N (We think may be Guttorm Guttormsson Has a child also N.N
(Father of Dagfinn Guttormsson in this journal)
So the path is warm???
Source for this information is Abbrev de Robeln (1995)
Title Skanke Atten
Author de Robeln, Roger
Publication Roros 1995 page p438

Not sure what it means, but there appears to be a link now between Dagfinn Gurrormsson and Ingrid Gurromsdatter, and a link back from there.
@andrew gilbert (it appears my father broke the string with Art coming into play...)

Andrew, we both seem to be straight line descendants from the same person:

Kristi Havtoresdatter Bjarkøy Kristin Toresdatter Bjarkøy

(Andrew Gilbert is your 19th cousin twice removed.)

/SW

Yes Sten, it does appear so...I am hoping that the lineage issues can be resolved at the Erik Guttormsson verification issue. I always try find where the families wwere torn apart a bit with some emigrating and others staying, some moving to different lands. Very interesting stuff.

Andrew, I know, just too damn fascinating when, what so often happens, one get stuck in a specific lineage problem and thus hooked, end up spending hours on it...sometimes but not always with success! Quite fulfilling when that happens, though :)

Georg Ohlsson,
On several sites there seems to be some support but the names are off a bit, Lineage between Guttorm Ostmansson d 1180>>NN Guttormsson (b1180-d 1240)>>NN Man (d 1270+)>>Guttorm Dagfinnson b1310-1347.
Assumption Thus:
(TORBJORN GUTTORMSSON b 1340-d 1412)

We know of Guttorm Dagfinnsson 1310-1347 Father of Torbjorn
We have his father as Dagfinn Eriksson b 1270 d 1310 (NN Man in that record)
We have Erik Guttormsson b 1240 d 1270

GAP 1 (Guttorm Guttormsson as noted "NN" Middle child between Helena and Sigge in a journal) b 1180 d 1240
GAP 2 Not sure ??

Guttorm Austmannsson and Ingrid Guttormsdatter b 1136 d 1180)

It appears they were in the Trondelag to Jamtland area throughout.

@Guttorm Austmannsson
@Ingrid Guttormsson
@Dagfinn Eriksson
@Guttorm Dagfinnsson

For Ulf, Sten, Georg consideration

"On several sites"

Many private sites on the net has one or several disadvantage, one of them are often that the person behind the site often only concentrate on their straight line, leaving out siblings, another is that they sometimes use sources from other sites, more or less like their own, just a collection of data from other sites with the result that bad information circulates in a bad recirculation.

Smart Matching from My heritage are a good idea, but often turns out to be unreliable, the same names and years doesn't always means that the profile are the same, another disadvantage are that people does not always correct error which thus continue to exist along corrected ones.

I would recommend to be careful using only such "sources", or even using them as a source link in profiles, unless they actually are correct and the best of the few existing alternatives. Some of them eventually ends to exist and just becomes dead links.

In Sweden we have adelsvapen.com as a source on the net for some noble families, unfortunately, they are often outdated or information are missing because it's seems like it's not in the people behind this site interest to keep it up to date or fully covered if it's possible.

It could depend on several reasons, of which one seems to be political, another seems to be to reject or just hinder a lot of "rednecks" from being a part of the "noble" blood, and yes, their goal are JUST to take the ones who wore the shield, not the ones that didn't always leaving off female lines unless they married next into another noble family.

As a support for some investigated noble families it's useful, but not more than that. Unfortunately, some people consider this or in fact, ÄSF, as it's called, where from the most sources are retrieved, as their holy grail, rejecting a lot of good private genealogy as well as from genealogy groups because such information doesn't always correspond to what is written in ÄSF and ÄSF always triumph out everything else in their thick skulls. The responsibl behind take care not to condescend into speculations, thus leaving out the most question marks in their work.

Than we got people with extremely heavy source-critical glasses, for them nothing else than a clean document of birth are good enough, sometimes not even that will due because nothing are bulletproof in their minds, the postman could actually have been the father... so they want DNA!

In the end, we face a dilemma, everybody could not possible read with their own eyes every source and verify it, so we need other people to put our trust to, and believe that what they say are right, but who do we believe in? As we have seen repeatedly, not only here, there are several reason for people to wanting to distort information, cover up, conceal, or make it fit their personal agenda, from example like the new Pharaoh erasing the names from the previous one, or the Nestor chronicle, Povest vremannych let, an attempt to create a glorification for the slaves, or the Soviet union massive history rewriting, and not to forget the Talibans blowing up statues of Buddha.

It never ends, it is a constant work in progress and the people behind this are more or less always authorized experts in their respectively field and it does not exclude genealogy.

If I wanted to explain this profile name, I would 100% say that his father were named Guttorm, but were does Sigge comes from?
Sigge Guttormsson, till Ljuna

Sigge are a shortening of Sigurd, so whom has he been named after?
The logical answer are obvious not his father, but maybe from his mothers father, or the generation above that. Does it exist a profile that would fit this, yes, Guttorm Ingesson, Prins av Norge

There are even a boy named Guttorm Sigurdsson, that died at the age of 5, nevertheless were crowned King over Norway. Of course, he could not be the father, but Birger Brosa support this branch in the civil war that reign in Norway between 1130 to 1217.

Birger was the grandfather to Birger Jarl who was the father to Kristina who married Sigge Guttormsson, we can see that it would have been political right to make a marriage between this two persons, if they actually represented the lineage to the highest social establishment in Norway as well as in Sweden at that time. The current paternal lineage here on Geni reflects that also with the lineage that has been put up, but are they equal and would the name Sigurd really break through this?

http://www.geni.com/path/Cecilia-of-Norway+is+related+to+Sigge-Gutt...

Unfortunately, there are no proof what I know about of a son of
Guttorm Ingesson, Prins av Norge
but it doesn't mean that there wasn't any son. If he were the father, then the lineage with Erik Guttormsson , Sigges brother, would mean that they weren't brother, just cousins, that would also enable the possibility that Erik indeed was the first husband to Kristina, because that would be equally good, and after that he died Kristina then remarried Sigge, just as equally good or if not, a little step up depending on the rankings. Any thoughts?

Sigge appears to be the youngest with Helena being the oldest. I fund several sites in Sweden that show a NN Guttormsson as second born,,,which makes sense if the oldest gets the fathers name. It would make him 60 years old when Erik (NN) in Dagfinn Erikssons lineage. was born and it appears he dies the same year.
It is all very inteesting right now, I was finally able to figure out how to use the Bing translator which has helped my considerable. I have been trying to find the Skanke history as some of the snippets through out the many profiles have had a chance to read and explore the various branches on the trees. I have a nice tie to Sjelord if nothing else, and that is just on my fathers side. I am next trying my grandmothers father Kittle Kasin from Kvitsid as well next. It has been rewarding as I have met several very nice distant cousins in the process...I have printed some of the sheets from the various forms and will try assemble them for a little better research as well.
@Erik Guttormsson

This is from my memory on how this lines looked from the time I become a member on Geni until now.

Kristina married to Sigge Guttormsson, his father Guttorm NN.
Someone added Erik NN as a husband to Kristina, Erik were soon after that named renamed Erik Guttormson.
Someone added the parent to Erik Guttormson, the lineage which we all agree did miss out a generation.
Someone made Erik and Sigge brothers, both being married to Kristina.
The lines upwards have been added, some lines have been altered, corrected, maybe several times.

With this said, hope that you understand that the line are a bit shaky, no solid actual proof, just a lot of indirect support. It's most likely the correct family, but exactly how they fit together, are not yet fully cleared out. I see a couple of possibilities that do fit, NN. Guttormson being the same as Guttorm Guttormson, are most likely correct, it's plausible that either Erik or Sigge were his son, or just one of them.

The second alternative open up for that both were married to Kristina, the first alternative, that they were brother would require breaking the law and a cover up that her both husbands were brothers, not likely, still not impossible. The name Sigge, as mentioned before, suggest a family relationship to a previous Sigurd, if a mother were high enough in rank, like a princess, that would increase the chance for her fathers name to live on even to a third generation.

In an almost contemporary danish line, we see one example on this, were a son took his mother full name as his own, skipping the patronymic completely, anyone could have been giving any name in random, but when it comes to the one in the top of the hierarchy, it was often a custom to honor your father and mother and especially their parents if they were very important.

None of this can be used as evidence, but it can together with more findings support a thesis that make us able to lay out the most plausible line to these two profiles. We are not quit there yet. We have probably the right areas, the right social group, the right kind of power, the right naming tradition within one and the same family that fit and we can thereby rule out a lot of other contemporary men just named Guttorm.

Can you guys please cite your sources?

In particular, from the profile and the discussion, I can't figure out why you think Erik Guttormsen existed at all. (His brother Sigge has a source listed in his profile.)

Harald,

He shows in Dagfinn Eriksson line. There are some sources listed there. I will backtrack and grab. Several had tried to link to Bard Guttormsson, that did not work well so far. Some are shown above for reference and review. I saw others on a Swedish genealogy site I just saw yesterday. Not sure of accuracy but there are annotations.

@dagfinn Eriksson
@guttorm dagfinnsson

UlfIngvarGöte, Sven Estridsen, sure.
As for the IQs - or rather the manual of how to use the brains they have - I agree with you, that just too many "youngsters" below 30 these days have a problem.
In particular so in handling several parallel scenarios and seeing the logical cross-connections, how they interfere and next draw constructive conclusions and solutions to complex problems from that to move ahead!
Actually with our tree structures in mente while looking around for and finding additional sources with relevant info for the purpose of next merging all of same to - hopefully correct - new structures is a task very similar to what I thrived on in my own corporate life.

Yes, looking for MH as a source of additional info more often than not adds any real facts. One huge reason being, that the MH "facts" have been imported from Geni as also vice versa :)

I know that from myself, best source! That is fine as long as one kind find independent sources as additional collateral.

/SW

Ulf, Sten, Harald

I did not really pick up on the Danish connection through their sister. I too am trying to find at least several items to support whilst trying cobble together a plausible string of logic.