John Goodman, "Mayflower" Passenger - Debunked family of John Goodman of the Mayflower

From http://www.goodmanhistory.com/other-goodmans/mayflower-john-goodman...

John Goodman, presumed to be the same John Goodman who was later on the Mayflower, and signed the “Mayflower Compact”, is listed with many of the other later Mayflower passengers on the 1620 voyage of the ship “Speedwell” from Leiden to Southampton. He is aged 25, and listed as a linen weaver. This establishes his birth date as about 1595, possibly in Holland, or in England if he was a son of one of the Separatists who left or were expelled from England and went to Holland, and who comprised the majority of Mayflower passengers to Plymouth. But, no wife or children of any sex are listed as traveling with him from Leiden to England. If he was married and had children, they certainly would have been listed and traveling with him from Leiden to Southampton, where the issue of excess passengers first occurs due to the purported issues with the “Speedwell”, which was also supposed to accompany them to New England. And as the earlier 1620 “Speedwell” passenger list from Leiden to Southampton clearly shows, he traveled alone on that first leg of the voyage, with no family.

John Goodman is mentioned in several of the early Plymouth Colony records, but he died of the “sickness” of the second year of the new colony, and is named in various lists of the dead of those same records. There has been much discussion, debate and research on this John Goodman, and no Goodmans are descended from him, despite what many oral or traditional Goodman family genealogies may claim. Those earlier genealogies were often poorly researched, based on very limited information, and their authors / compilers did not have access to information and resources that have since become available online and in other venues. Some may have been outright frauds. See http://members.aol.com/calebj/hoaxes.html.

https://www.themayflowersociety.org/about-the-pilgrims20/the-pilgrims: “Any person able to document their descent from one or more of the following Mayflower Pilgrims is eligible to apply for membership in the Mayflower Society:”; where John Goodman is not on the list. The fact is that in the 388 years since the Mayflower Compact was signed, no one has ever been able to prove to the Membership Committee of The Mayflower Society that they were descended from this John Goodman, from any male or female lineage, and I am sure many have tried.

Despite some claims, there is also no evidence or proof that his purported wife and/or children came later on any other Mayflower voyage, or on the “Speedwell”. There were several ships named “Speedwell” in the last 400 years. The one that carried the Leiden Separatists from Holland to Southhampton in 1620, where many but not all of them later embarked on the Mayflower, was declared un-seaworthy and later sold by the Separatists. That may be one reason many abandoned the voyage, and some returned to Holland. re: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mosmd/index.htm. A ship named “Speedwell” did make several later trips to New England in the 1630s, and it may have been the same ship, but I could not find any passenger lists for those voyages.

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Also note

In 1905, Henry Martyn Dexter proposed that John Goodman was the man found in Leiden records as John "Codmoer," widower of Mary Backus, who married Sarah Hooper. But this has been disputed by many later researchers as unfounded: "Codmoer" is a pretty significant misspelling of "Goodman" even by Dutch standards.[3] John Goodman, "Mayflower" Passenger most likely did not marry Sarah Hooper. [4]

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* http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Goodman-204
**MD 23:76; MD 37:198; MF 43:14; English Ancestry and Homes of the Pilgrim Fathers by Charles Banks; Plymouth Colony: Its History and Its People, 1620-1691, by Eugene Stratton; The England and Holland of the Pilgrims by Henry Martyn Dexter.
**http://mayflowerhistory.com/goodman
** Plymouth Colony: Its History and Its People, 1620-1691, by Eugene Stratton, page 297.

Erica, if he was Dutch he may have Anglicized his name so that others could pronounce and remember it. I don't know Dutch but I've heard enough of Germanic languages to know that the first half of his name may have sounded a lot like 'Good' and the second half at least begins with an 'm.' That's why I didn't write this off as a possibility.

My great grandfather Stephen Batchelder/Bachiler was a Puritan rabble-rouser in England and spent 9 years in exile in Holland before going back to England and then coming to the Massachusetts colony and helping to found Hampton (later part of New Hampshire) in roughly 1637-38. This fact led me to look online for Dutch Puritanism and here's what I found:

"Almost from the beginning of the history of the Reformation in the Netherlands a Puritan strain could be found in the Dutch Reformed Churches. This Puritan influence was to continue for many years and it made an indelible mark on Dutch thought. Some even speak of "Dutch Puritanism."

The reason why a Puritan influence could be found among the Dutch was the close contact, throughout the centuries, between the Dutch and the English. The English came to the help of the Dutch in the War for Dutch Independence under William the Silent. The English sent representatives to the Synod of Dort (although it is a matter of debate whether they were of any assistance in the battle against Arminianism). During the time of Spanish persecution in the Netherlands, many fled to England and found refuge there; and during the efforts of the Stuart kings in England to impose prelacy on all the churches, many refugees found a haven in the Netherlands. One need only think of the Pilgrims who, after fleeing England, lived for a time in and near Leyden before sailing for America. English scholars were recognized for their learning and were invited to Dutch universities to teach, and Dutch scholars found positions in English universities. Dutch ministers preached in English churches and English preachers found many years of enjoyable labor in Dutch churches. The contacts were of many kinds, very close, and frequent."

http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doctrine_pages/Doctrine_Intro/Portra...

So you might not want to ignore this possibility.

Respectfully,

Amy

P.S. Just think of how many people changed their names later (or had their names changed for them) when they emigrated to America because they were too difficult for people to pronounce and remember.

"Jan Codmoer," widower of Mary Backus, married Sarah Hooper in Leyden on Oct 1619; Samuel Fuller "accompanied him to the wedding.".

In 1905, it was stated & published that this Jan Codmoer was the "dutchified" name for John Goodman of the Mayflower. The book page is here: http://www.geni.com/documents/view/marriage_event-60000000394933621...

However, no wife of John Goodman ever came from Leyden to the Plymouth Colony, and certainly not a Sarah Hooper.

In the last 388 years, no children, parents or wives of John Goodman of the Plymouth Colony have been found.

Gov. Bradford did not record his death in "of Plimouth Plantation," but Mourt mentioned him killing wolves. The estimate is he was a single man who died between 1623 and 1627.

Contemporary historian Eugene Aubrey Stratton does not equate him with Jan Codmoer:

https://books.google.com/books?id=7TH062rPP2MC&lpg=PA297&ot...

Elsewhere it is noted "Codmoer is a stretch to Goodman, even for Dutch.". :)

The Mayflower Society accepts no descent from John Goodman of the Plymouth colony.

Here is Elizabeth Burgess born about 1570 - a generation earlier than John Goodman (born about 1595).

I don't know what FindAGrave is thinking on that one ...

I love the points about how similar / exchanging in theology the Leyden intellectuals and the English Separatists were. It was a Golden Age in the Netherlands, and I believe the Separatists may have been intellectually stimulated by the free thinking.

Unfortunately they had trouble making a decent living (bottom of the economic scale). I sometimes wonder that if they had been able to prosper better, provide a better situation for their families, if they would have adventured at all. It was such a desperation move to make!

And speaking of Elizabeth Pye, she was not the mother of Thomas Burgess, of Sandwich born 1601

From http://pcez.com/~bigshoe/du/Pery/burges.html

"...in the will of the latter Thomas [husb. of Eliz. Pye, of Truro], written 22 April 1626, his son Thomas was listed last of six sons who had not yet "accomplished the age of one and twenty," suggesting that he was the youngest, born probably not much before 1613 and quite likely several years later. This conclusion was supported by the 1620 Visitation of Truro, listing no Thomas among the children of Thomas and Elizabeth (Pye) Burgess."

-- http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~thesays/joan/pafn...

Continued notes about the Burgess / Pye / Phippen families:

From http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=glenc...

POSTING TO BURGESS ARCHIVES by AlRose509_AT_aol.com:

Following e-mail from Dean Burgess Here is where the Thomas Burgess debate now stands.

A Thomas Burgess did marry Dorothy Waynes, but Paul Burgess, who will probably also reply to you, hired a British genealogist to trace this marriage record and the couple had no children. We know Dorothy Burgess was not a Waynes. While I was in Cornwall I traced all of the children of the Rev. George Phippen (all of the records still exist) and found he had no daughter named Dorothy. The origin of this name as her maiden name comes from the fact that Thomas Burgess of Truro (widely believed to be Thomas of Sandwich MA's father) calls George Phippen his "brother-in-law" in his will. Records show he was his brother-in-law, but that was because George Phippen married, as his second wife, Thomas Burgess's wife's sister.Thomas's wife was Elizabeth Pye. We know Dorothy Burgess was not a Phippen.

This will take more cleanup Rev Sir Daniel Burgess

Thanks for all your work Erica. That removes a long branch of people I thought I was descended from, lol... Better to know the truth. But now I'm stuck at Daniel Burgess and Catherine Burgess, for whom there is no parentage given. I'm wondering how common that name was, what it derived from, and if they might not be cousins of these other Burgesses.

And I was just going to ask about this:

"The LDS Ancestral File contains a listing that a Daniel BURGESS born about 1599 at Staines, Sutton Magna, Wiltshire married Catherine and had children: Elizabeth (PARKER), Joseph, Samuel, William, Jeremiah, Anne, Mary, Isaac, Daniel, BURGESS.

Note these are the same 9 siblings that come from the the will of Joseph BURGES of Anne Arundel County, including the distinctive Elizabeth PARKER. Someone attributed these to being children of Daniel rather than his brother Isaac."

Is this to say that the direct ancestor is Isaac and not Daniel? I'm descended from Daniel's supposed son Samuel, so I can't help but be curious.

I hope I did the right thing in changing his birth date to 1614 based on this (please correct if wrong):

"This Daniel is also incorrectly listed as born in 1599, when as shown by the baptismal record, he was born in 1614."

What a confusing mess!

And there's no Isaac listed as a sibling of Daniel Burgess.

Amy, you're interpreting the same way I did.

Yes - he's missing his brother Isaac on Geni. If you want to add him & an Unknown Wife, then I can move the children over, that apparently got misattributed to Daniel .

- the list of children come from "will of Joseph BURGES of Anne Arundel County, including the distinctive Elizabeth PARKER"

(side note: I removed Col William of Anne Arundel from this family group, as apparently he was NOT one of the children listed in Isaac's son Joseph's will, and therefore a name & place coincidence Burges family)

- and yes, I think its possible to find the father of Daniel & Isaac, since apparently there's a baptism record for Daniel in 1614. Should list him!

- also correct the location so we find the "correct" baptism record.

Genealogy is really something, you tug on a string and the whole thing unravels. :)

But gets put back together better! Apparently you're not Cornish after all. ):):

Re: Which Burges ancestry for Daniel & Isaac?

I think they are not related to the Truro, Cornwall family. You could check by looking at the Visitation for Cornwall in 1620:

http://ukga.org/england/Cornwall/visitations/index.html

(click the link for page 63)

Which gives the "Mayor of Truro" pedigree. It stops at 1620, and Elizabeth Pye is clearly there; she's also in the History of Parliament article, which could reference the PCC.

But my quick look at the Visitation did not see congruent naming patterns.

Also, since David was a minister, we should be able to extract a bit more info about him - his rectorships etc. Hmm, check the Oxford and Cambridge alumni databases!

Very interesting and great to have John Goodman's profile as correct as possible. I notice that he went for a walk with MY ancestor, Peter Browne!

Just came across this and noticed that even after all the lengthy discussion, the parental connections for Elizabeth Burgess are a mess and making Geni pathways thru them questionable.

Elizabeth Burgess Was the daughter of Anthony Pye & Constance Pound.

Sources

* Visitation for Cornwall in 1620. Page 181. [https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00sain/page/181/mode/1up Archive.Org] Page 26. [https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00sain/page/26/mode/1up Archive.Org]

Thank you so very much, Erica Howton She's my 9th great-grandmother but I couldn't make sense of the connections. You are so great at having the right resources to nail things down.

I know all of you curators must be pulled in so many directions for requests and that it's challenging to work on them all. I always feel bad when I need help but am so very grateful when any of you take the time to help with issues I find and can't resolve on my own.

Tell me which immigrant ancestor you’re working on will help me. There’s often quite a few errors and that way I can focus more on what matters to you. I tend to digress.