Robert I the Bruce, King of Scots - Robert the Bruce

I did not see anything in his profile that would indicate that he is a KT. Sorry!

He was not. There is a legend that the Templars helped out at the battle of Bannockburn, but that was invented hundreds of years after the fact.

Those Templar Fellows had their pointy little swords in everything, didn't they? Where is the Grail now? Where, I ask?

Didn't you watch the Indiana Jones documentary? It's in a secret US government archive.

;)

Arrows, We were there. Don't try to get to deep into our secrets. Be warned

"Investigations: Although scientists would like to do different tests on the Nanteos cup including Carbon Dating, the current owner will not allow it because ----the testing may damage or even destroy the cup---."

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Nanteos_Cup

Funny it is I believe, the cup looks pretty destroyed anyway.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/06/26/13/29FE690400000578-0-ima...

With regards to the GRAIL, to which do you refer? The actual cup Jesus drank from or His Royal bloodlines?

Justin:
Or it might be locked up in the Vatican archives in Rome!

Robert I Bruce's great great grandfather was William Marshal (1st Earl of Pembroke) and he was a prominent English Templar Knight. William is interred at the Templar Church in London. The Templars were finally dissolved in 1312 and the Battle of Bannockburn was in 1314. So the Knights that rode to the assistance of Robert (including Henry Sinclair) would not have identified themselves as Templars. Henry's son William carried Robert's heart back to Jerusalem around 1330 but was killed en-route. Remember that the Templars were not only knights. They had a massive support system of admin and military staff and the Scots and other friendly nations after 1312 (Luxembourg, the emerging Swiss cantons, Portuguese etc.) all helped them hide and subsequently spend their wealth.

Bevan Robert Jones: I agree with most everything you stated. I believe it was Sir James "the Black" Douglas that tried to carry Robert's heart to the Holy Land and died en route in Spain. Was Sinclair along, maybe it was the both of them trying to take it? I will have to re-read.

Guys, The way I read the story, James Douglas & Sinclair went together with The Bruce's heart. They helped a King on the way in Spain & both of them were killed there. Sinclair was cornered and Douglas went back to help him, and both were killed. I might be wrong, but that is how I understood it.

Hi Crystal & Deborah, that sounds right from what I've also read. Robert the Bruce was close to the Sinclairs and the Black Douglas clan. The Sinclairs were quite likely very close to the Scottish Templars with their Temple in Midlothian being almost a stone's throw away from Roslin. Robert the Bruce also united the Islanders with the Lowlands and the Highlanders. These clans all rode to his assistance at Bannockburn and any Templars as mentioned previously would have been incognito already. There are Templar graves on various Scottish islands such as Iona and Skye, probably more. The Masonic degree, the Royal Order of Scotland, declares its origins to be firstly Icolmkill (Iona), then Kilwinning. Go figure...

Hello Deborah & Bevan! I concur. I re-read some passages on the Spain incident to help Alfonso XI of Castile before Douglas, Sinclair & others were proceeded to Israel. The Saracens (what Muslims were called during that time period) seemed to have retreated and then attacked again. Sinclair was surrounded, Douglas went back to help, threw King Robert's heart forward into the battle and they were defeated and killed. I am curious of who were the survivor(s) that carried Douglas & Bruce's heart back to be buried at Melrose Abbey and St Bride's Kirk, at Douglas, Lanarkshire. Thank you for the interesting information on Templars as well, Bevan.

Bevan, Is there a connection with the 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite? One of my ancestors (on my Dad's side) was one. Doing my research I have also discovered we go back to The Bruce (thru Christian Bruce Shaw), hence all the reading on "The Bruce!" Any information would be appreciated,
Deborah

The Grail is not a Cup.

Legend says that Robert the Bruce created two orders after the Battle of Bannockburn i.e. The Order of the Thistle (revived later by James V in 1540) and the Royal Order of Scotland. This latter order was likely created to accommodate the various lodges that had sprung up, composed of ‘operative’ masons building cathedrals at the time and those ‘speculative’ Christian knights who were fleeing oppression.

The Royal Order of Scotland comprises two degree systems, that of the Heredom of Kilwinning and the Rosy Cross (or Rose Croix). These have evolved over time and are known in the US now as the Scottish Rite and the York Rite. The Rose Croix degree runs from the 4th to 33rd degrees and much of it involves allegory about knights travelling from west to east in search of lost secrets etc. Then again, most Masonic ritual is about King Solomon's temple etc. Anyone who doesn't see the links to the Templars is not looking closely enough. Of course nothing can be proved....

It's pretty clear that Robert the Bruce was linked to the Templars via his ancestry with William Marshall and also Ralph de Monthermer. So he and many others at the time would have been familiar with their obsession with King Solomon's temple. Robert also united the Islanders at the exact time that the Templars were disposing of their treasures in various parts of the world. This is where it starts to get interesting.... Maybe I need to write a book, like so many others.

I too have direct connections to Robert the Bruce and various other key characters in the development of Masonry in the intervening period. As a mason myself this has given me a unique insight which I'm happy to share with anyone interested.

The word 'Cup' is symbolic of 'Blood'...

It might be worth noting that the modern theories about what happened are not borne out by historical documents.

The Scottish Templars were arrested in 1307. They were tried in 1309. The Sinclairs, among others, testified against them, but no verdict was reached. The order was dissolved in 1312. Its properties in Scotland were given piecemeal to the Knights of St. John, as required by a Papal Bull. Many of the remaining Templars were put in Cistercian monasteries, although some of them seem to have been allowed to join the Knights of St. John.

The kings of Scotland do not seem to have done what the kings of Portugal and Spain did -- they did not transfer Templar property and knights to new royal orders. If they had, we would see it in the charters, and the properties would not have gone to the Knights of St. John.

There are many legends about the origin of the Order of the Thistle, including one that it was founded by King Achaius in the 800s. All of these legends are now considered to be spurious. James III (15th century) seems have founded an Order of the Thistle, but if so it was gone by 1558 when there was no Scottish order of knighthood. The 1687 foundation just drew on bits and pieces of history to make itself seem more ancient and therefore more prestigious.

The idea the Grail is symbolic of blood is a modern theory, not a fact. It isn't even a cup in the earliest sources. It is variously described as a platter with a severed head, a saucer, and a stone that fell from heaven.

Thanks Justin, where can we access the historical documents showing which properties went to the knights of St. John. I concur that much of what is said these days is conjecture but where is the historical proof otherwise, or is that conjecture as well?

Thank You for your detailed answer Bevan, I appreciate it.
I guess maybe this sounds dumb, but, I am so proud to come from Robert Bruce and his family! My whole life, we knew very little, limited information on where we came from in Scotland & England. I only wish my Father had lived to know.

Bryon, I've never seen a place where all the references are collected into one tidy source. And, because of the immense popularity of Templar theories you're probably not going to be able to filter out all the garbage on a simple Google search.

Instead, it's like doing any other Scottish research in this period. You have to have a good idea specifically what you're looking for, then you have to look through acts of parliament, charters, and other books to gather the later fragments that refer to earlier actions.

There were as many as 15 Templar houses in Scotland at one point, and some say only 5 at the time of the suppression. If you could find a list of those it would make searching easier.

For example, it is relatively easy to find references to Templar property in searches that bring up Lord Torpichen. Torpichen was the main house for the knights of St. John (Hospitallers). During the Reformation James Sandilands, who was preceptor of Torpichen, received the order's lands in Scotland as a barony when the order was dissolved.

Here is something to whet your appetite. In 1488 the united Hospitallers and Templars received a confirmation from1 James IV. That confirmation mentions two earlier confirmations, in 1448 and 1482. The confirmation is to the Hospitallers "et fratibus ejusdem militie templi Salomonis" (and their brothers of the Temple of Solomon). John M. Leighton, James Stewart, History of the County of Fife (1840), 3:254.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3YMLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA255&dq=...

Would just like to add one point about great(X)granddad William the Marshal. He was not a Templar during his active lifetime. However, it was a thing for nobility/knights to take Templar vows on their deathbeds and be buried in the robes of the Order - apparently he did so.

I found some info on Wiki and added it to Sir James Sandilands, 1st Lord Torphichen

Thanks, Bill. He is a very interesting person. There are many modern "orders" of St. John and the Temple that derive their claims through him. He's never going to become a research priority for me, but I wish he could be at the top of someone's list.

I added the source Lord Torphichen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Torphichen

for
Lords Torphichen (1564)[edit]
James Sandilands, 1st Lord Torphichen (c. 1511-1579), succeeded by his elder brother's grandson:
James Sandilands, 2nd Lord Torphichen (c. 1574–1617)
James Sandilands, 3rd Lord Torphichen (c. 1597–1622)
John Sandilands, 4th Lord Torphichen (c. 1598–1637)
John Sandilands, 5th Lord Torphichen (1625–1649)
Walter Sandilands, 6th Lord Torphichen (1629–1696) m. Anne Elphinstone, daughter of Alexander, 6th Lord Elphinstone[3]
James Sandilands, 7th Lord Torphichen (d. 1753)
Walter Sandilands, 8th Lord Torphichen (1707–1765)
James Sandilands, 9th Lord Torphichen (1759–1815)
James Sandilands, 10th Lord Torphichen (1770–1862)
Robert Sandilands, 11th Lord Torphichen (1807–1869)
James Walter Sandilands, 12th Lord Torphichen (1846–1915)
John Gordon Sandilands, 13th Lord Torphichen (1886–1973)
James Bruce Sandilands, 14th Lord Torphichen (1917–1975)
James Andrew Douglas Sandilands, 15th Lord Torphichen (b. 1946)

and http://www.stravaiging.com/history/castle/calder-house

Calder House is a large 16th century mansion, but almost certainly incorporates earlier work. The barony of Calder was possessed by the Douglas family until the first half of the 14th century when, upon the marriage of Eleanor Douglas, daughter of Sir Archibald Douglas, to Sir James de Sandilands. Eleanor’s brother, William Douglas, the 1st Earl of Douglas, gave the barony of Calder to Sandilands in 1348 as a wedding gift. - See more at: http://www.stravaiging.com/history/castle/calder-house#sthash.54nKH...

for Sir James Sandilands, Kt.

Torphichen Preceptory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torphichen_Preceptory

Sir William Wallace of Elderslie, Kt. held his last parliament here, prior to the Battle of Falkirk in 1298. The only surviving document signed by Wallace as Guardian of Scotland, Custos Regni Scotiae, was prepared here

Interestingly the Templars did not seem to own much land in Scotland prior to their demise in 1307 - 1314. Any land they might have owned was around Edinburgh (Torpichen, Roslin, Temple etc.) In the years leading up to their demise one might imagine that they would be consolidated their lands and treasurers. Much was no doubt passed to their English, French, Luxembourg, Portuguese supporters etc.

Scotland remains interesting. Robert the Bruce appears to have been instrumental in uniting the Highlanders and Islanders where almost no Templar lands existed prior to their demise. And yet there are significant and unusual Templar properties and graves on various islands. Scottish Freemasonry also ascribes it's rise to the West of Scotland (Killwinning and prior to that, an island).

To my mind it's quite feasible that the Templars moved from East to West Scotland and the Islands during their suppression. It's also interesting how the Sinclairs of Roslin took on the Orkney Earldom shortly after the Templar's demise. Roslin Chapel may have Templar / Masonic allegory in its stonework but I reckon that's about as far as it goes. Nothing more interesting to see there. It's also interesting that William de Mohr (the Templar Master in England and Scotland circa 1300) died a stone's throw away from Killwinning.

A very minor correction -- I don't think Roslin was a Templar property. It belonged to the Sinclairs from the time of the earliest Anglo-Norman settlement in Scotland, even before the formation of the Templars and still belonged to them after their dissolution.

Likewise, Torpichen was a Hospitaller property, not Templar. And Kilwinning was a major Benedictine monastery, not part of either order.

But you are right that there is a great deal of uncertainty about the extent of the Templar presence in Scotland. They had an unknown number of properties, almost certainly gifts from noblemen wanting to assure their souls' salvation. Those properties were administered from an unknown number of Templar houses. Academic guesses range from 1 to 5. If you read those analyses closely you'll see they had their headquarters at Temple, a number of properties around it, probably another house at Ardersier, and the lands around it. Almost everything else is speculation about whether certain properties were still in Templar hands and whether they would have been administered from Temple or Ardersier, or whether they might have had a Templar house onsite.

The number of Templars residing in Scotland cannot be estimated, except that each Templar house was probably staffed by one or a small number of knights or serving brothers.

Only two Templars were arrested and interrogated in Scotland. Both of them were from England and both of them were serving brothers, not knights. That suggests the Templar properties in Scotland were administered from England. It also consistent with their testimony that no chapters had been held in Scotland and no knights received there, as well as testimony about Visitors (that is, auditors) from France coming to check on the English operation, and Visitors from England coming to check on the Scottish operation.

We should be a bit careful when talking about Templar gravestones in western Scotland and the Isles. The claim they are "Templar" is a bit overblown. They are anonymous knights, and sometimes have the emblem of a skull. That's it. That's certainly a "Templar style", but not exclusive to the Templars.

It certainly doesn't hurt to explore and even embrace other theories, but we need to keep checking the underlying evidence so we don't fall into the trap of thinking there's more proof than there is.