Attention Curators!! Are these two men one in the same?

Source= http://books.google.com/books?id=usUcAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA432&lpg=...

During the reign of David 1 Seiher de Say who emigrated from England obtained from the Scotish king some lands in East Lothian where he settled and to which the emigrant gave the name of Say tun Seiher was succeeded by his son Alexander who flourished under Malcolm iv and enjoyed Sayton and Wintoun in Hadington and Winchburgh in West Lothian By several descents all those lands came to Sir Christopher Seyton who married a sister of Robert Bruce and who fell in 1306 in support of his crown under the axe of Edward 1 And he was succeeded by Alexander de Seyton who obtained from his uncle the Scotish king various lands in the Lothians and in Berwickshire p This respectable family was enobled by the title of Lord Seton under James 1 and in 1600 by the higher rank of Earl of Winton which were all sacrificed to mistaken principles.

Ian,
No, I believe that the two men are different. I have documentation which has not been posted yet that Saher de Saye is from the Picot de Saye Avenel lineage.

best regards,
katherine

Ian,
I have added the proper documentation for Saher de Saye.

I hope this helps,

kindly,
katherine

Yes Ma'm That Saier de Say is one in the same for producing the Seton de Winton family in Scotland from what I have read!! Although there fathers look to be different?? Unless its a translation thing between languages?

Ian,
These two profiles were carefully merged together. Saher's true parents were added to his profile. I left his descendants intact.
Good job at catching this! This makes you and I genetic cousins!

Respectfully yours,
katherine

OK but still confusing. This source from Mr. Seton of the Seton family website states that.... The Early Seton Family

As their own distinctive crescents show, Seier de Seton (I) and his brother Walter sprang from a second son of the house of Boulogne. Known in their Flemish homeland as Seier and Walter de Lens, they were sons of Count Eustace I ’s second son, Count Lambert de Lens, whose daughter by a second marriage (to the sister of William the Conqueror) was the Countess Judith, mother of Scotland’s Queen Maud.

This source states that Seier de Seton's father was Count Lambert Lens who wore 3 distinctive Crescents on there coat of arms. I do not see 3 distinctive crecents on Picot de Lascelles, I, High Sheriff of Cambridgeshire Crest or coat of arms. Source=http://www2.thesetonfamily.com:8080/history/The_Early_Setons.htm

Erica Howton and

Justin Durand
Can you to pros at Geni give some guidance on the father of Saher de Saye

from which the Seton de Winton Earls of Winton family descend from?

Lambert II, count of Lens

OR

Picot de Lascelles, I, High Sheriff of Cambridgeshire

Thanks, Ian Winton

From readings posted above... The 2 men look to be one in the same man!!

I'm a bit skeptical but I have no good, sourced info. As far as I know the father of Saier de Saye, supposed ancestor of the Setons, was Robert fitz Picot de Saye and the line stops there. Everything earlier is Victorian invention, as far as I know. If I were researching the line, I'd start with a theory that everything before Dubhghall ("Dougall", "Dugdale") might be a later invention. Supposedly born in Scotland with a Scottish Gaelic name before the Norman Conquest but he has a French father?? Seems pretty unlikely. Also the name combination Walter "Dougall" de Seton is unlikely. This Walter is normally called just Dougall. The addition of the name Walter suggests someone is trying to find a way to reconcile two different versions.

Ian,
You should perhaps do a little more research on Lambert II, count of Lens; if you did you would find that he only sired one daughter. Looks like the source that you are trying to work from is not credible.

ambert II, Count of Lens (died 1054) was a French nobleman.

He was the son of Eustace I, Count of Bologne and of Maud de Leuven (daughter of Lambert I of Leuven).[1] c. 1053 he married Adelaide of Normandy, Countess of Aumale, daughter of Robert I, Duke of Normandy and sister of William the Conqueror.[2] Adelaide was the widow of Enguerrand II, Count of Ponthieu who died in 1053.[3] c. 1054 Lambert and Adelaide had a daughter, Judith of Lens, although Lambert would scarcely have seen her; he was killed at the battle of Lille in 1054.[4] Lambert was supporting Baldwin V, Count of Flanders against Henry III, Holy Roman Emperor when he was killed in battle.[5] His widow, Adelaide, married thirdly, Odo, Count of Champagne.[6]

See this article here:
http://self.gutenberg.org/articles/lambert_ii,_count_of_lens

respectfully yours,
katherine

Walter, (Dougall "the Black Stranger”) de Seton
Is related to this discussion which Ian kindly pointed me towards.
It seems to me that there is little evidence for any of the fathers that have been linked to this profile - The Early Setons site doesn't seem to list any sources and Medlands doesn't support any of the fathers that he is attached to.
I wonder what others think of detaching him so that the line starts with him?

No objection from me.

Greetings All!
I respectfully suggest checking the source which is currently attached to Dougall the Black Stranger de Seton.

View attached source here:
http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000039004466483&

There is no evidence that the name "Walter" is this man's name. Justin Swanstrom doubted the forename Walter. The only documented evidence is "Dougall" de Seton. This document comes from the Seaton family, who published a book. Please go to the attached sources for this profile.

Respectfully submitted,
katherine

This is as you say Private from a book written by the family - not a primary or even secondary source so hardly reliable. As there seems to be discrepancies in the first name - sometimes Saher sometimes Walter and this book seems to say the true first name was unknown, I'd be prepared to have ?nn or similar for his first name and split of the parents and let this discussion show how the decision was arrived at.

That sounds reasonable to me until this can be sorted out.....

Among the names which occur in the lists of the Conquerors of
England, may be found those of “Gerbod,” a son of Matilda by her
first husband, “‘Gilbert of Ghent/5 and “Walter of Flanders.” (See
“History of the Norman People,” by Edward A. Freeman, Vol. III.,
p. 312.)
The last of the three Flemish Knights above named, was of a
family derived from the Castellans of Cambray, of whom a Walter is
mentioned by Baldric of Noyon, in his Chronicle, as “Lord of the
Castle Lens” as early as 950 A. D.
According to Des Bois, in his “Dictionnaire de la Noblesse,” his
son Walter II., was constituted hereditary Castellan of Cambray, soon
after the above date, who had issue: I. Walter. II. Sicher, Bishop of
Cambray. III. Ada de Cambray, who married the Baron of Oissy, and
had issue Walter III., Castellan of Cambray in 1049.
http://www.mocavo.com/Woodhull-Genealogy-the-Woodhull-Family-in-Eng...

I have just posted a new source from Burke's Landed Gentry which states that the first recorded Seton is named Dougall de Seton. You can view it here:
http://www.geni.com/documents/view?doc_id=6000000039110601499&

Burke's Landed Gentry, first published in 1826 and developed by John Burke (1786–1848), remains widely used by historians and genealogical researchers, e.g. Ancestry.com.

Respectfully,
katherine

Burke must be used with care, because the earlier editions contain many errors and "family traditions" that later research has not substantiated.

The same, incidentally, holds true for the Visitations, which are also of highly variable quality (some pretty good, some - like Shropshire - just dreadful).

Even in the Seton family history site it makes clear that "Dougall" is a nickname that means "Black Stranger" based on the fact that the Normans wore black armour it seems so not a true name.

Well.....yes, that is how I understood it as well. I am agreeable to however you wish to call it; you are the curator. ;)

Dougall is a word that became a nickname that became a given name. I would be very suspicious of any idea that Dougall was a nickname for someone unless there is an explicit contemporary source that makes the identification. Without that kind of source, the most likely answer to the problem is always going to be that someone has tried to mash two people into one, by using a theory that Dougall was a nickname for someone else.

The Anglo-Flemings wore a strong coat of mail, which made them objects of dread and wonder to the Britons, Saxons, Picts and Celts in whose ancient songs they were called Du-gall, the “Black Strangers”, from the appearance they made when encased in armor. This name also came from the French “du Gall”, and referred to the Galois origins where France was once called Gaul. Dougall de Setoun, then, literally means “the Black Stranger

http://www2.thesetonfamily.com/history/The_Early_Setons.htm

coat of arm

Originally it meant "a Viking" and specifically a Dane, the Danes being more likely to be dark-haired, even then, than the Norwegians or Swedes.