ATTENTION Curators, please assist

Can we detach Gruffydd ab Owain Brogyntyn, arglwydd of yr Hendwr

from his parents? Here, his father is his actual uncle.

thanks!

Somebody didn't understand Welsh patronymics. "Ap" (or "Ab" if before a vowel, I'm told) always indicates the actual father's name. At least until you get down to Tudor times, when things get a bit wonky due to the Royal mandate to adopt stable surnames.

By the way, Wikipedia (take with approipriate amounts of salt) has this to say about the Brogontyn line:

Owain Brogyntyn
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Owain Brogyntyn ap Madog (fl. 1160-1186) was the youngest and illegitimate son of king Madog ap Maredudd, the last king of a united Kingdom of Powys. He was the son of Madog by the daughter of the Maer du or "black mayor" of Rûg in Edeyrnion. He was the brother of Gruffydd Maelor the ancestor of Owain Glyndŵr. Presumably Owain Brogyntyn would have been raised by his mother at Rûg in Edeyrnion. He was acknowledged by his father and granted by him the lordship of Edeyrnion and also Dinmael. It is quite possible that he inherited some of these lands through his maternal grandfather, the Maer Du, which were confirmed and perhaps extended by his father the king of Powys. At some point he also came into possession of Castle Brogyntyn on the English borders at Selattyn close to Oswestry.

In 1160 after the death of his father and his eldest half-brother, he inherited a share of the Kingdom of Powys.[1]

Owain first married Jonet verch Hywel (whose ancestor was Athelstan Glodrudd of the Fifth Royal Tribe) but with her had no children. He next married Marred ferch Einion ap Seisyllt who was to be the mother of his three sons.

His youngest son, Iorwerth ab Owain Brogyntyn, married Efa verch Madoc the sole heir of Madoc, Lord of Mawddwy (the younger son of Gwenwynwyn, prince of Powys Wenwynwyn). The son of Iorwerth and Efa, Gruffudd ab Iorwerth, was confirmed in his lands as Baron of Edeyrnion by Edward I under the terms of the Statute of Rhuddlan by which England organised the subjugation of Wales.

According to Philip York writing in 1799 a cup and a dagger belonging to Owain Brogyntyn were preserved at Rûg in Edeyrnion. Later accounts in the National Gazetteer dated 1868 state that a cup and dagger in the possession of "Colonel Vaughan of Rhug" were once owned by another Owain of Powys, the much later Owain Glyndŵr. These objects, whoever the original owner, may now be lost.

The direct patrilineal descendants of Iorwerth ab Owain Brogyntyn survived at least until the beginning of the 20th century and are known to genealogy as the Hughes of Gwerclas family.

References

York, Philip The Royal Tribes of Wales 1799, p. 119,120

1. Ashley, Mike (2012). The Mammoth Book of British Kings and Queens. Hachette.

We have a further complication: Janet de Saye married a Gruffydd ab Owain Brogontyn, not Gruffydd ab Iorwerth Brogontyn.

All things considered it might be simplest to leave him where he is and change his patronymic to "ab Owain".

Private User

Is this the father of Gruffydd ab Owain Brogyntyn, arglwydd of yr Hendwr

Llywarch ap Heilin Gloff

No way, Angus. Anybody "ap Iorwerth" HAS to have a father named Iorwerth.

Either the patronymic is wrong and should be "ab Owain" (which I suspect, considering the Janet de Saye reference), or the placement is AND he's mis-married.

I am not going to disconnect until I am told the correct parents

As an aside this is how the profile in My Heritage is written Gryffydd Ap Iorweth Ap Owain Brogontyn

Angus Wood-Salomon, the online trees in this field are highly problematic, so I've been going for the closest I can get to the primary sources (this being such things as the Victorian County History and antiquarians' transcriptions of court cases and heralds' visitations.

That being said: Owain Brogyntyn had three sons that are documented, as Private User points out. Iorwerth ap Owain Brogyntyn married Efa verch Madoc; his son is Gruffydd ap Iorwerth, who married Gwenllian verch Daffydd Goch -- her mother was Angharad verch Heilyn ap Tewdwr.

another son, Gruffydd ap Owain Brogyntyn, married Janet de Say; he is the father of Daffyd ap Gruffydd.

another son is Bleddyn ap Owain Brogyntyn, but I've already untangled that piece of the tree; he had been consolidated with Bleddyn de Acton, but now All Is Well, and they are two separate people, with their own separate trees.

The information I've given you above is from Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain: here's the link:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9mNHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA607&dq=...

cheers, and many thanks, Anne

FIRST let's find out who was the "real" Janet de Saye, because everything depends on HER dates.

Several sources claim that the Gruffydd who married her was the oldest son of Owain "Brogyntyn" (that's a nickname - his patronymic would have been Owain ap Madog) himself. This means she would need to have lived in the late 12th century, not the late 13th.

If that's wrong and she was the wife of a Gruffydd ab Owain ap ?? ap Owain Brogyntyn, we need to figure out who the missing link was - Gruffydd, or Bleddyn, or Iorwerth.

Bleddyn did have a son named Owain who had a son named Gruffydd, who wound up surrendering all his lands to one of the Lacy Earls of Lincoln (probably Henry, c1251-1311, since he was directly involved in the Edwardian Conquest of Wales, 1277-1283).

Incidentally, I keep finding misplaced "doppelgangers" up and down the tree, due to people's misunderstanding of who was whom, descended from whom, and married to whom. The recent Wentworth mess was a good example of that, all caused by a wife who was in two places on the tree - one of them wrong.

One further note: "Brogyntyn" is a locative used as an identifying nickname. Brogyntyn Hall is currently in Shropshire, but the border has moved. "It was a residence of members of the princely dynasty of the Welsh kingdom of Powys and one of the taî'r uchelwyr (houses of the gentry) in late medieval Wales." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brogyntyn

Owain Brogyntyn was one of three illegitimate sons recognized by Madoc ap Maredudd; so Susanna is not his mother. Brogyntyn is the name he took after the demesne that Madoc gave him. I've found "Brogyntyn"s all over the tree, since that looks like a name that would be carried on. So it's in Shropshire now. Nice.

I'm going to see if I can track down the "real" Joan de Saye - she may be in MedLands somewhere....

This looks like being a particularly tough riddle, as there were several different Say families in different parts of England, and some of them were matrilineal (i.e. adopted the mother's name).

Say of Clun and the related Say of Moreton and Say of Stokesay are of particular interest, as all three locations are in Shropshire and just across the then-fluid border with Wales. (Brogyntyn is now IN Shropshire, in fact!)

Say of Clun daughtered out into the Fitzalans before the year 1200, so they're out of this reckoning.

The Say connection with Stokesay is slight, the manor passing out of their hands to the Verdons and thence to Lawrence Ludlow in 1281, where he built the fortified manor house now known as "Stokesay Castle".

Moreton Say is physically closest to Brogyntyn - and *that* branch of the Says is woefully underdocumented. They are believed to have been a cadet branch of Say of Clun, but exactly how is not known.

Scanty records include this: "Two of the three (fn. 137) last mentioned manors, Moreton Say and Stoke upon Tern, were members of the barony of Weobley (Herefs.). In 1243 Hugh de Say (d. c. 1249), member of a family (fn. 138) who were probably cadets of the 12th-century barons of Clun, withdrew his manor of Moreton Say from suit of the hundred. His brother Walter's manor of Stoke upon Tern, however, continued to do suit. Later Hugh's son Robert held Moreton under his older brother Hugh, to whom their uncle Walter's manors passed. Shortly before 1255 Hugh exchanged his Shropshire estates with John de Verdun for Irish lands." http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/salop/vol11/pp93-104

No record of a "Sir William de Say" with a daughter Joan or "Jonet", but no reason there could not have been one.

Private User & Private User
Would it be better to post this information in Gruffydd ab Owain Brogyntyn, arglwydd of yr Hendwr so it stays easier to find?

I mean the discussion linked to his profile Gryffydd Ap Iorweth Brogontyn - Welsh Patronymics, Again

Tagged this page over to the relevant Discussion.

Thanks, [[6000!

Cecilia Bengtsdotter Sparre was not wife of Olof Haquini. Could someone please help in removing Olof?

Cecilia Bengtsdotter Sparre

Private User
Done

Merci beaucoup!

Please merge

http://www.geni.com/merge/compare/6000000024638216939?return=merge_...

Thx!

Kristen Torsen Høiberget - merged. Please merge follow ups

Thank You Rafi! :)

what happening now????
Nicholas Maugis
Huguette Prieux (Prieur)
Maguis
Inconnu

is this sabotage???

Martin let me know if you find more

Did you see this earlier today? I have been noticing some no names

http://www.geni.com/discussions/149874?msg=1043201

notice Erica Howton
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