Barend Lotriet, b2 - Possibly two Barends

Peter dit is wat ek op 1 bron het.
b2 Barend
» 29.7.1759, burger Swellendam, x 23.8.1778 Maria Catharina Neethling; xx 21.9.1783 Gerbrecht Vosloo
s.v.
LOTTERING Frans
(oorspr. naam waarsk. Lottriet of Luttriet) x Zwartland 29.7.1759 Catharina van der Westhuysen.

Aanbeveling verander die van na Lottering en gee die ander twee as AKA.
Dit sal keer dat mense alewig verander.
AS my van Lottering in SA was en mense noem my LOTRIET sal ek hewig onstel wees en beslis verander.

Die vrou:
b5 Maria Catharina Neethling » 28.2.1773, x 23.8.1778 Barend Lottering
d.v. SV3
Jacob Frederik (Friedrich) Nöthling later Neethling, broer van stamvader Benjamin Nöthling. Aank. 1738, soldaat. Burger 1746, hoede- en klokmaker. 1758 koop by "Bosheuvel", die ou plaas v. Jan van Riebeeck. Vir die moeders van sy kinders vgl. Hoge, "Personalia", bls. 289, of "Bydraes", bls. 99.
Hope it helps.

Ek weet wat die publiseerde bronne gee. Die primere bronne laat my dus juis twyfel oor die gepubliseerde inligting.
Kyk weer na my argument in die begin. Barend word beskryf as jonkman in die huwelik met Gerbrecht ( dus nie voorheen getroud nie ). As hy dan met Maria getroud was sou hy dan as wewenaar of geskei aangetoon word.

MOre Peter,
EK verstaan heeltemal. Maar ons sal moet iemand in die Kaaap kry wat die SK's kan opsoek om doodseker te wees. Dit alleen is geldige bronne.
Ek is seker ek het jou al ertel van "kerkregisters" en die foute wat die Skriba's ge/kon maak het. Indien nie hier is dit:
Pa Frik - my pa- se Broer dra hul oupa du Plessis se name.
David Philippus du Plessis. So ook al 12 die kinders en weer hulle kinders.
Ek kon oupagroot se SK opspoor as David Philippus, so sê sy Bybel in my besit ook.
Na 15 jaar se betaal, betaal en weer betaal kry 'n dame toe die dooprekords en daar, en net daar, het die skriba's vir hom, sowel as sy oupa na wie hy vernoem was, as David Jacobus ingeskryf ipv David Philipus. So sê my eie oupa Jan Marais se dooprekrd dat hy op die 27ste Sept 1881 gebore is maar sy name is die van sy ouboet, Jan Jacobus, i.p.v. Jan Johannes.
Dus - sterfkennis dra die name soos op die ID dokument. Dit is die ware bewys.
Daar kan ook foute in spelling wees maar nie ega's nie.
Mooi dag.
Juds

Ek hoor en verstaan ook wat u se maar in daardie dae was daar nie ID dokumente nie en ek kan ook net soveel verkerde SK;s toon wat ook nie korrek is nie.
Dit is net vir my baie vreemd dat in hierdie geval die Barend wie met Maria Neetling getroud was as jonkman beskryf word binne 'n paar maande van haar waarskynlike dood, Daar is 'n kind gebore uit die eerste huwelik skaars 10 maande voor die gewraakte 2e huwelik.

Peter
Unless we find other documentation supporting what SAG says, then both the entries under LOTTERING and NEETHLING are likely incorrect and your view from the marriage register must be upheld with the possibility of another Barend.
Could you please also register this under the project IRREGULARITIES and send a note to GISA to consider this when revising those family registers?

Daan
This notice appears in SAG..
"LOTTRIET/LOTRIET/LOTTERING
(Hierdie familie se gegewens bevat heelwat teenstrydighede
en word onveranderd weergegee, Red.)"
so i presume that they are aware of the problem.

Kyk na die twee Barends se kinderlyste in SAG - hulle moet twee aparte egpare wees - Ek het jare gelede 'n GEDCOM vir die families opgestel, maar het dit nie meer as losstaande dokument nie.
David de Klerk (alias Limare)

Dankie David.
Juds

Hallo, Daar is beslis twee Barends. Ek is pynlik stadig besig met die LOTTERINGS en verwante families. Die Barend wat getrou het met VOSLOO was Frans se seun. Die Barend wat getrou het met NEETHLING se pa soek ek nog. Barend x NEETHLING het kinders beginnende met Truitjie in 1779 tot en met Adam Johan in 1802. Ek is besig om alles te probeer pluis. Wat ek vir 'n feit weet is dat daar twee Barends is. Die dogter Christina se boedel (1820) help met haar sibbe se name en geb datums. Hulle is almal daar mooi in plek behalwe Truitjie 1779 wat vroeg dood moet wees. Groetnis, Elizabeth

I found this death notice for Barend Lottering *c 1761, Graaff-Reinet MOOC 4790, 1841 (actually died Dec 1833, Krommebosch, Somerset district). No parents, but mentions one child whom the mother took beyond the boundaries of the colony - could this be the "other" Barend Lottering. It almost appears as if the wife left him long before his death. If it was Maria Catharina Neethling then she could have gone on to marry Reynders and Wagenaar.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQX-MQP6-5?i=765&...

Well done Charlette. Then we do have two of them (Barends), one with MOOC 8/34.12 as per Geni and another with MOOC 4790 and other dates of birth and death but both claim Krommebosch.
Elizabeth nou moet mens hul net kan skei.
Laat maar weet as ek iets by KAB argief kan gaan opsoek.

See this from Graaff-Reinet baptismal records - on same page:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-D9K8-Y?i=27&a...

Barend Lotriet / Maria Neethling child – this Barend Lotriet parent seems to be different to the Barend Lotriet witness below.
Therefore 2 Barends!!

Lotriet / Ooms child – but notice the witnesses – appears this Barend is married to Gebregt Vosloo and not to Maria Neethling as above.
Therefore 2 couples!!

This is the baptism for Cathrina Elisabet =20 Oct 1783, Graaff-Reinet https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-D9K8-Y?cat=99...
Parents are Barend Lotteriet and Maria Neeteling

This is a death notice MOOC 379/74 (1874) for Katrina Elizabeth Lotriet d 23 Dec 1873, Houwater [Victoria West]. Parents shown as Barend and Maria Lotriet.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQF-M3YY-Z?i=1476...
Children shown as Maria Magdalena; Johan Adam; Barend Johan Fredrik; Siebert Jacob signed by C J F Neethling.

This appears to be the same girl and confirms her parents. Spelling of names seems to be changeable and appears Lotriet or variations and Lottering were at times interchangeable.

The mother Maria Catharina Neethling only married Reynders in 1786 and her first Reynders child was c 1790 so the date would all fit in for this child.

Have a look at this baptism - it is for a Jacob Fredrik Lotriet =20 Apr, 1783, Cape Town
Child of Barend Lotriet and Maria Catharina van de Caab
Witnesses – Gerrit Lotriet, Hester van de Caab from Waveren (Barend's parents?) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZN4-475?i=35&...

This child is in SAG as a child of either Maria Catharina Neethling or Gebrecht Vosloo!

What if we are all barking up the wrong tree and Barend Lotriet had children NOT WITH Maria Catharina Neethling but with another by the name of Maria Catharina van de Caab??

We need to find more children with a mother called Maria Catharina van de Caab.

Hi all,

I've been working on this the last few days, there are definitely 2 Barend Lottering/Lotriet. Barend (married to Gerbrecht Vosloo),son of Frans Lotriet and Catharina van der Westhuizenth and the other (married to Maria Neethling also Maria van de Caab) son of Gerrit Lotriet and Hester van de Caab.

They appear to be family (based on the witnesses at the baptisms of their children), most likely two cousins. They both lived in the Land van Waveren (Drakenstein/Paarl) for many years and baptised children at the same church, often in the same year.

Will upload the complete list of children for each with links to sources to this discussion before creating a second profile to split the family.

Below is the parents and detail for Barend 1

Frans (also Francois) Lotriet x Catharina van der Westhuysen

* 1759 Franciena baptised 1759/03/11 Swartland witnesses: des kinds ouwders https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-F33F?i=654&am...

* 1759 Christina 1759/07/29 Swartland witnesses: des kinds ouwders https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-F337?i=655&am...

* 1759 Barend 1759/07/29 Swartland witnesses: des kinds ouwders https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-F337?i=655&am.... Note detail for Barend given further below

*1762 Gerrit Frans* baptised 1762/03/07 Swartland (members of Land van Waveren), witnesses: Gerrit Lotriet (*later Gerhardus Francois x Anna Magdalena Ooms) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-F398?i=665&am...

*1764 Francois 1764/04/01 Swartland Witnesses: Christiaan van Dijk en Huijbregje Slabber https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-F395?i=675&am...

* 1769 Cornelis Johannes baptised 1769/03/19 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKD-F3M8?i=701&am...

*1783 Jan Hendrik Lotriet (born ?) baptised 1783/04/20 Cape Town (members of Land van Waveren/Drakenstein/Paarl) witnesses: Frans Lotriet, Maria Sophia Schaarenbergh https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZN4-475?i=35&...

-------------------

Barend Lottering (son of Frans) born c. 1759 died December 1833 Krommebosch, Somerset district MOOC 4790,1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQX-MQP6-5?i=765&... (assumption that this is his death notice, based on a son Arnoldus being mentioned in the notice) and Gerbrecht Vosloo married 1783/09/21

*1785 Christina Hendrina Fransina Lottering (born ?) baptised 1785/04/12 Drakenstein, Witnesses: Gerhardus Francois Lottering and Johanna Vosloo.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W94M-3?i=499&...

*1787 Arnoldus Lottering (born?) baptised 1787/03/19 Drakenstein, Witnesses: Arnoldus Vosloo, Catharina Verkouter, Arnoldus Vosloo Arnoldus zoon and Fransiena Lottering https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W9WP-8?i=646&...

*1788 Johanna Catharina Lottering, born 1787/04/14, baptised 1788/12/11 Drakenstein, witnesses: Jacob Calits Murder and Maria Vosloo https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W9WL-5?i=680&...

*1791 Christina born 1789/05/24, baptised 1791/09/27 Drakenstein, Witnesses Johannes Vosloo and catharina van der Bank https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W9WL-9?i=724&...

*1795 Francois born 1794/01/14, baptised 1795/02/11 Drakenstein witnesses: Cornelis Lotriet, Geertruy Willemina van Eede; https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-HSHC-L?mode=g...

*1796 Geertruij Willemina born 1795/04/02, baptised 1796/05/15 Drakenstein, Witnesses: Wessel (?) Vosloo and Catharina Lotriet https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-HSHZ-T?i=59

Below is detail for Barend 2. Unable to locate his baptism entry but parents are possibly Gerrit Lotriet en Hester van de Caab.

Barend Lottering (Lotriet) born ?, died before 1819/02/26 MOOC8/34.12 http://databases.tanap.net/mooc/ and Maria Catharina Neethling (Nothling)* married Kaapstad 1778/08/23 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFQ-SRWW?cat=993508 *Her sister Catharina Elizabeth Neethling appears to be the person married to Reynders (1786) and Wagenaar (1797). Note Barend Lotriet was still alive in 1801

*1780 Geertruyda Lotriet [Truitje] Baptised: 1780, 13 Febr: 1780 Father: Barend LUTTERING Mother: Mietje NETELING Witnesses: Barend Luttering en Francina Luttering Additional notes: [Ge]boren den 2 Aug: 1779 (SAGb1c1)

*1783 Jacob Frederick Lotriet (born ?) baptised 1783/04/20 Cape Town (members of Land van Waverene/Drakenstein/Paarl) witnesses: Gerrit Lotriet, Hester van de Caab https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZN4-475?i=35&... (SAGb1c2)

*1783 Hester, born 1783/09/01, baptised 1785/02/09 Drakenstein Witnesses: Jan de Boer and Hester van de Caap https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W94M-Z?cat=99... (SAGb1c3)

*1787 Maria Josephia, baptised 1787/10/27 Witnesses: Nicolaas Vosloo and Maria Vosloo https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W9W5-W?i=655&... (SAGb1c4)

*1790 Barend Johannes Frederick, born 23/06/1790, baptised 1791/12/26 Witnesses: Johannes Jacob Frederik Neethling and Catharina Strydom https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-W9W2-3?i=728&... (SAGb1c5)

*1793 Catharina Elizabeth (born ?) baptised October 1793 Graaff-Reinet Witnesses: Arnoldus Lotteriet and maria Elizabeth Ooms https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-D9K8-Y?cat=99... died 1873/12/23 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQF-M3YY-Z?i=1476... (SAGb1c6)

*1797 Christina Magdalena, born 1797/08/03, baptised 1797/12/24 Tulbagh, witnesses: Gerhardus Lottering, Anna Magdalena Ooms and Gerrit Lotring (SAGb1c7) https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVD-5S4M-X?i=674&... died before 1820/0606 MOOC8/35.35 http://databases.tanap.net/mooc/

*1799 Johan Adam born 1799/10/02 baptised 1802/04/20 (SAGb1c8) witnesses: Johan Adam Neetheling, Carolina Petronella Pieterzen https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-WB9N?i=467&am...

*1801 Francois Gerhardus, born ? 1801 /06/04, baptised 1801/10/16 Graaff-Reine (in de Koub), witnesses: Gerhardus Francois Lottering, Anna Magdalena Ooms, Johan Hendrik Lottring and Catharina Magdalena Lottering https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSV8-D9KS-S?i=107&... (not listed in SAG under b1)

There seems to be a large number of duplicates with this family. I've always considered for older records, the year of birth more likely to be accurate than 2nd hand information on a death notice. I think the birth dates on the MOOC for 8 of the 9 children is incorrect. it appears that the Francois Gerhardus (the youngest child) possibly died young. but the rest is in the same order as their birth/baptism records and unlikely that they had a few children with the same names born on different dates. It also appears that information on the 2 Neethling sisters were combined and contributed to the confusion.

Basically SAG is largely correct - only two errors for the Gerrit son b1 and c1-c8 i.e. 2nd marriage to Gebrecht Vosloo (this is not correct she was married to Barend Frans' son) and the 9th child was not recorded in SAG.

I am helping someone with their Lotriet ancestors and we want to update the profile but would like to get some input on this matter first.

Thanks

Just a few notes on Hester van de Caab. She seems to be a blood relative of Maria Catharina Neethling (Nothling) and not Barend Lotriet. Her mother is Catherina van de Caap, daughter of Hester van de Caap. Hester Hester van de Caap was given her freedom by Jacob Friedrich Nothling (Fredrik Netheling) on 1767/03/01 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZN4-WLD?i=448&amp... and she married Jan(sz) de Boer from Jever (Germany) on 1767/03/29 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFQ-SRY3?i=28&amp... . According to SAG, Jansz de Boer and Hester v.d.K were the parents of Catharina, the partner of Jacob Friedrick Nothling and the mother of 5 of his children.

Parents of Barend 2 is thus, father possibly Gerrit Lotriet but mother unknown.

Good work, Elmien!

I am beginning to believe there were possibly also 2 with the name "Maria Catharina" - a Neethling (married Reynders and Wagenaar) and a van de Caap (who married Barend Lotriet/Lottering).

SEE:-
In Cape Archives Maria Catharina Neethling's Death notice KAB MOOC 3200, 1839.

No parents shown on her DN. Both husbands shown as "late". 8 children - 3 Rhynders children and 5 Wagenaar children.

DN pg 1 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQX-M5SY?i=1286&a... Image 1287

States her husbands' names are Johannes Hendrik Jacobus Rhynders (who is he?) & Willem Wagenaar

DN pg 2 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQX-M2VK?i=1287&a... Image 1288. Signed by son Willem Wagenaar

See also an entry:- Maria Catharina Neethling w.o. Willem Wagenaar https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSQ8-HSRL-J?i=330&... Image 331

Is husband possibly Johannes Hendrik Jacobus Rhynders according to her death notice??? One of her sons according to her DN had the same name.

In Cape Archives - Willem Wagenaar's Death Notice - KAB MOOC 115, 1822 filed 1839. Sorry no link for this.

Thanks Daan and Charlette. Charlette I agree with you, there are two sisters with Catharina in their names, the one married to Reynders and Wagenaar is a sister of the one married to Lotriet. I am away until the 20th of Jan and will update the profiles on Geni then. I am still searching for more information on Gerrit, the father of the 2nd Barend and the possible connection between Gerrit and Frans Lotriet

Daan, the Lotriets remains interesting. Why are some families so difficult to sort out?