Are Elizabeth Mann (Weaver) and Elizabeth Done (Weaver) actually the same person?

Started by John Smith on Tuesday, October 1, 2013
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10/2/2013 at 12:50 AM

Elizabeth Mann has no notes or sources - you could use "contact manager" to enquire about that profile.

Elizabeth Weever, heiress of Weever

Has very good sources attached. I do not know if a mother is identified

10/2/2013 at 12:53 AM

Carole (Erickson) Pomeroy,Vol. Curator do you have an opinion about the 2 (or is it 3) marriages for Elizabeth Wever who married John Stanley?

10/2/2013 at 6:51 AM

This tree has the Manns listed as the same as the Stanleys: so Baseling Mann was the son of John Stanley and Elizabeth Weaver. I can't find anything on them that isn't an online family tree.

10/2/2013 at 12:32 PM

Could not find references that have a John Mann, Baseling Mann, or John Mann who married Maude Boothe, the listings on Peerage & Our Royal, etc. for George Booth do not include a dau. named Maude.

There is listed a Maude Mann who had a brother Christopher, married William Brewster on Our Royal, etc. but is does not list the parents.

Could John Mann & John Stanley son of Thomas de Stanley, 1st Lord Stanley and Joan Goushill, be the same person? Is Baseling a term for base son?

10/3/2013 at 10:47 AM

Your Welcome
Although the references don't clear anything up about John Mann.

Here is a dilemma, this visitation has Weever's, there is a Elizabeth who married a John Stanley but she is the dau. of Sir Edward Weever. There is really no way to tell if it would be the same Elizabeth Weever & John Stanley, supposed dau. of Thomas Weever.

10/4/2013 at 12:23 AM

Just to make this even more fun I don't think this John Stanley Sir John Stanley of Weever & Over Alderly is correctly placed in the tree.

To me the 3rd son of Sir Thomas Stanley (1406-1458) & Joan Goushill (1401->1460) is more likely to be this guy

10/4/2013 at 12:20 PM

Along with sourcing references I did merge another John Stanley & wife Elizabeth Weever, & child MargaretMargery wife of William Tarbock//Torbock they were managed by Dan Brown. His John Stanley & Elizabeth Weever were not connected to any parents.

The updating on the birth is from merging and selecting the dates listed on the MP.

Erica, I see from Our Royal, etc., & Tudor the Geni Profile has the wrong death date, these list it as 1486 or between 1476 and 1485.

I'm not sure where the site gets the names John Stanley, by his 3rd wife, Elizabeth, widow of John Vampage, & d/o John I'Estrange, one source listed is Plantagenet Ancestry & where would I find this source? (61696. Ibid. Pg 323 Ch of John Savage by Katherine Stanley: Christopher Savage Marr: to his cousin, Anne Stanley, d/o John Stanley, by his 3rd wife, Elizabeth, widow of John Vampage, & d/o John I'Estrange)

Plantagenet Ancestry lists
Thomas Stanley, K.G., 1st Lord Stanley, married Joan Goushill
14. John Stanley, Esq., in right of his wife, of Weever and Over Alderley, Cheshire, 3rd son. He married after 1445/6 (grant of Elizabeth's marriage) Elizabeth Weever, daughter and heiress of Thomas Weever, Esq., of Weever and Over Alderley, Cheshire, by his wife Elizabeth. They had three sons, John, Thomas, Esq., and George, and five daughters, Cecily (wife of Thomas Venables, Esq.), Margery, Anne (wife of Ralph Ravenscroft, Esq.), Jane (wife of Thomas Hawarden, Esq.), and Cecily (again) (wife of Hugh Davenport, Esq.) John Stanley, Esq., was living in 1476, but died before 1485. His widow Elizabeth, married before 28 June 1487 (2nd) John
Done, Knt., of Utkinton, Cheshire. They had two sons, Richard, Esq., and William, and three daughters, Ellen (wife of David Middleton, Piers Holland, and Urian Brereton), Mary (wife of Richard Bruen, Esq.), and Joan (wife of Tochet Beeston, Esq.) Sir John Done died in or before 1497/8. She died 17 Feb 1512/3.
14. Margery Stanley, married about Jan. 1489/90 (date of marriage settlement) William Torbock, Knt., of Tarbock (in Huyton), Lancashire, 2nd son of Richard Tobock, Knt., of Tarbock (in Huyton), Lancashire, by Elizabeth, sister of Thomas Daniel (or Daniell), Knt., Baron of Rathwire [Ireland]. They had three sons, Henry, Thomas, Esq., and Richard, and one daughter, Mary (or Maud) wife of __ Dutton). He was heir in 1489 to his older brother, Henry Torbock, Knt. He was knighted by Seorge Stanley, Lord Strange, in Scotland during the expedition of 1497. Sir William Torbock died 5 May 1505.

I was not able to find the actual Stanley line.

Magna Carta Ancestry: A Study in Colonial and Medieval Families, 2nd Edition ...
By Douglas Richardson
11. John Stanley, Esq.
Same as Plantagenet Ancestry & again not able to view the actual Stanley line

In Magna Carta Ancestry - Pg.106-107 & Plantaget Ancestry Pg.681-682 Elizabeth/Isabel Vernon is the wid. of John Vampage & m. as his 2nd wife John Stanley son of Eleanor (Sutton) & George Stanley

10/4/2013 at 12:42 PM

- The profile details for John Stanley, Esq. (name, dates) need to be resolved to the correct values; somehow I doubt he was the Archdeacon of Cheshire
- his wife Elizabeth seems to me to be the daughter of Sir Thomas Weaver of Weever (the l'Etrange parentage seemed a question mark only)
- perhaps she married 1) Vampage 2) Stanley 3) Donne
- the Mann marriage seems to be SOG - Some Other Gal

Feedback ?

From Wikipedia the Archdeacon's of Cheshire by the name of Stanley are from 5 July 1425–bef. 1433 (d.): Richard Stanley; 19 January 1454–bef. 1462 (d.): Sir Edward Stanley; & bef. 1478–bef. 1485 (d.): James Stanley (this James from Wikitree seems to be the brother of Thomas Stanley who m. Joan Goushill parents of John Stanley, Esq.) but from it says James Archdeacon of Chester was the 3rd son of Thomas & Goushill, so he would of been the brother of John who married Elizabeth Wever. Tudor has John (James) Stanley (Archdeacon of Chester) as the son of Elizabeth Harrington & John Stanley., James Stanley Archdeacon of Carlisle was son of Thomas Stanley & Joan Goushill. list Archdeacon's of Cheshire as M. Richard Stanley (fn. 1) 1425-1433; Edward Stanley 1454-1462.; & M. James Stanley M.A. 1478-1485.,_James_(1465%3F-1515)_(DNB00)
STANLEY, JAMES (1465?–1515), bishop of Ely, born probably about 1465, was sixth son of Thomas Stanley, first earl Derby [q. v.], by his first wife, Eleanor, daughter of Richard Neville ...etc. ... He has been confused by Newcourt, Le Neve, and Cooper with his uncle James, who became prebendary of Holywell, London, on 26 Aug. 1458, prebendary of Driffield on 11 Nov. 1460, archdeacon of Chester in 1478, prebendary of Dunham in Southwell Cathedral, warden of the collegiate church of Manchester in 1481, and died in 1485 or 1486. (his uncle James Stanley archdeacon of Chester would of been the son of Thomas & Joan Goushill but then on Stanley, Thomas (1435?-1504) (DNB00) it lists Thomas Stanley (1406?–1459) & Joan Goushill's son James was archdeacon of Carlisle.

10/4/2013 at 7:31 PM

Ok so that's an easy sort - brothers John Stanley, Esq. & James Stanley, archdeacon got merged (by history and / or Geni). Since James had no children (I hope) perhaps a new profile for him?

10/4/2013 at 7:34 PM

NB sounds like the uncle James Stanley was archdeacon of Cheshire & the nephew James was archdeacon of Carlisle ?

10/4/2013 at 7:40 PM

Correction to myself earlier re reading Carole's points:

"In Magna Carta Ancestry - Pg.106-107 & Plantaget Ancestry Pg.681-682 Elizabeth/Isabel Vernon is the wid. of John Vampage & m. as his 2nd wife John Stanley son of Eleanor (Sutton) & George Stanley"

Therefore, since that's another John Stanley, we can eliminate Vampage from Elizabeth Weever's too many husbands.

Back down to

Daughter of: Thomas Weever of Weever (not Edward)


1) John Stanley, Esq., son of Thomas Stanley & Joan Goushill (not his brother James the archdeacon)
2) Donne (the next guy to look at)

With the Mann marriage still to be looked at as well

10/4/2013 at 10:51 PM

There is no James connected as John's brother on Geni, I agree with Erica, James Stanley was probably merged with John. In the visitation's chart for the Stanley line, James is listed as Archdeacon of Chester, brother of John. although some other places list him as Archdeacon of Carlisle.

It is the idea that maybe John Mann, is really John Stanley born in Alderley, Chester or Cheshire (his Geni facts are not corrrect, probably place of birth & death also since we know his death date is wrong) but John Mann has birth & death in Scrooby, Nottinghamshire.

And Baseling Mann?

Private User
10/5/2013 at 7:16 AM

In my opinion smart matches can be really stupid. All they appear to be doing is matching a name and nothing else . I have smart matches for people in my tree that i know can't be but because i am not a pro , I can not look at them and connect the correct ones. Example . smart matches for dead relatives ,who never married and died young.

Private User
10/5/2013 at 5:49 PM

W- the reason I replied to it was I saw something about it on this link. Then next time if you don't want some one to pick up on something , don't mention it. Have a good day.PS I have Stanley in my family too. I won't even go into them. Have a great day.

Private User
10/5/2013 at 8:34 PM

I do but i'll keep it for me . I thought I un followed this .

10/7/2013 at 12:17 AM

Well I figured out what had happened to James Stanley James Stanley, Archdeacon of Chester

He had been confused with "the lewd & lascivious" James Stanley, Bishop of Ely, and apparently that's a historic confusion. This discussion is interesting

10/7/2013 at 12:35 AM

Tagging the real James Stanley, Bishop of Ely

Who - alas! - may have the wrong son ...

10/7/2013 at 1:04 AM

John Smith I think you've called this correctly & "John Mann" is another name (perhaps just in Internet land) for John Stanley, Esq.

Check this out

John - Lord of Mann - Stanley, 3rd son of Thomas Stanley & Joan Goushill

No wife listed

With a son "baseling" Mann of Scrooby b abt 1450

(Scrooby is not particularly near Weever, Cheshire, is it?)

So I'm thinking there's a pre marriage to Elizabeth Weever (b 1440 - she cannot be "baseling's" mother) "base born" (FNU) Mann son, perhaps legendary, perhaps leading to a Notable American ..

What say you all ?

10/7/2013 at 1:43 AM

Oh good grief

This tree leads to William Brewster of the Mayflower

So they have it as

Elder William Brewster, "Mayflower" Passenger

His father is William Brewster, Archbishop of York (1505-1590)
(quite a promotion for a bailiff on the household of the Archbishop!)
married Maude MANN (actually - Maude MANN was married to the bailiff's father)

The "archbishop's father" has another promotion - to knight! News to him!!
So "Sir" William Brewster (1470-1482 - poor lad, only lived 12 years ...) married to Mary Harvey - and EOL (end of line)

But let's go back to Maude Mann in the wrong generation on Mocavo
1510 Of Scrooby, Nottinghamshire, England 7:
Death: 11 Oct 1558 Scrooby, Nottinghamshire, England

On Geni same
Maude Brewster

Ouch - did Scrooby relocate itself from Yorkshire?

Parents on Mocavo:
John Mann (1470-1502)
Elizabeth Cornwall (1497-)
27 year age difference?

On Geni:
John Mann (1470- )
Maude Booth (1472-1502) daughter of wife of John Mann

10/7/2013 at 1:45 AM

And here we go with the FNU Mann
Baseling Mann

At least on Mocavo he has no mother ....

10/7/2013 at 2:02 AM

The real Maude Mann's ancestry should be discussed in this article

1Hunt, John G., "The Mother of Elder William Brewster of the Mayflower," NEHGR 124:2 (Oct 1970), p. 250

10/7/2013 at 10:01 AM

Finding spurious pedigrees perpetuated on unwitting genealogists goes well with coffee!! I'm googling Gustave Anjou to see if this is part of his scamming - sure smells like it could bd.

10/7/2013 at 11:15 AM

No Brewster or Mann or Stanley on the list - which doesn't mean this isn't his work, or of an emulator. I have never seen the name "baseling" before, it sounds quaintly picked up from an old (or invented old) manuscript?

What we know:

- Maude Mann of Scrooby had a brother Christopher
- the Stanley's did seem to indulge in Illegitimate children

Did John Stanley, Esq. ever carry a title of "Lord of Mann" in some other fashion (assuming the "lord" is a garble) - in other words, property settled on him by his father's family from the Isle of Mann?

How does an FNU son fly from the Isle of Mann to Scrooby in order to have a son John, "father" of Christopher & Maude?

10/7/2013 at 11:52 AM

Hopefully he's enjoying his students figuring it out for themselves. :)

I'm hacking away at the Geni profile for John Mann's wife, mother of the baseling child

Elizabeth Mann

- is it at all likely she is Elizabeth Weever (b abt 1440-d 1513)? Is baseling Mann another name for her 1st son John Stanley?

10/7/2013 at 11:56 AM

Reference for Elizabeth Weever's son John from

Author: Rev William Betham, The Baronetage of England, vols 1-4,
92491. Ibid. v2 p85 10. Sir John Stanley, of Weever by Elizabeth Weever had issue: John (Stanley).
92492. Ibid. v2 p85 10. Sir John Stanley, of Weever by Elizabeth Weever had issue: Thomas (Stanley) p.87 = -- Lyversage.

10/7/2013 at 1:26 PM

Is baseling a first born or a base born?

If baseling Mann = John Stanley, 1st son of John Stanley Esq & Elizabeth Weever, "also called Mann" based on property inheritance, and he had a child John, whose name evolved to John Mann, & that Mann had 2 children, Christopher & Maude, the latter marrying a Brewster & giving birth to a post master ...

What is this lot doing in Scrooby, not especially near Cheshire?

10/7/2013 at 2:29 PM

5 days journey? And a name change based on property near Ireland (presumably income to support the child). For the 1st son & heir, and with a date range that does not align particularly well for Elizabeth Weever to be the mother? You think? Smelling Gustavian Romance to me ....

10/7/2013 at 3:32 PM

Since this pedigree is "out there" I'd rather make notes, MPs & cut impossible connections. I think profiles should be made, if missing, of Elizabeth Weever's children so they can be MP'd.

Baseling Mann is the son of an unknown of an unknown woman & a John Mann. We are only guessing that its an alternate name for John Stanley, Esq - so to me, John Mann should be MP'd as well, with perhaps a link to John Stanley within the overview.

Mulling over adding to the spurious pedigree project because I'm still not sure where the original records come from. There are plenty of LDS downloaded machine Mis matched records out there.

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