Duplikaat Progenitor projekte

Hi All

Just wanted to put a note out that there is now also a "South African Progenitor" project created by June and Sharon and that SV/PROG's profiles and collaborators have been copied to the new project. I noted to Geni that I thought this may cause confusion and that a complimentary project would make more sense instead of one in competition, but I have seen no detailed proposal or communication about what they envisage and why. I trust it will become evident in due time.

What I understood is that it may now be a new Master project and that SV/PROG is now a sub project but it does not quite seem the intention. SV/PROG was always intended for my own own people and it by definition this is not fully representative. Firstly the plan seem to have been to change SV/PROG but I asked this not be done without consultation and discussion which has not happened.

I am not clear about how it will work but have asked Geni to allow the existing project to contine to use SV/PROG as the method to identify our Progenitors. I will contine to work on SV/PROG as genealogical starting point on our tree for anyone who wants to continue to play. Mau

By way of explanation - hopefully getting rid of any confusion!.

The South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors) is by Mau's definition about the "Afrikaner Tribe" although the heading does not define this. Just one of many groups of people who were progenitors in South Africa.

The new "South African Progenitors" project is to establish and document ALL the groups of South African Progenitors - not just the Afrikaners. The Afrikaners were not the only people who populated South Africa and this gives a more complete overview of the origins of South African people. Please know that any assistance in this task is very welcome!

Not all followers have been included in the new project - only 70 odd of nearly 300. Collaborators have been copied to the new project which is a good thing - the more help the better! All profiles attached to the South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors) project have been deleted from the South African Progenitors project - it is not about individuals but about the various groups of people.

I am sure that this arrangement will be for the overall good of the SA Genealogical scene - aiming to give a complete picture. Let's work together towards a well balanced tree that brings pleasure to all, and which accommodates the enormous spread of people that make the population of South Africa as rich and diverse as it is today.

June

Thank you June. ;-)

Some reorganising will have to be done, becase before the latest project, I included all progenitors (including my wife's Rooinek progenitors) under Stamouers/Progenitors. According to Mau and June's explanations they will have to move to another group under South African Progenitor group some being 1820 Settlers as well. Poor old Thomas Samuel Hood being a London Mission Society missionary and not to popular in the politics of those times, you will have to run and find a new hole! I still wonder how my father in law being a son of a Rooinek Home Gaurd proposed to mother in law being a daughter of a Cape Rebel.
And never the fight ceases!!

Nou wat nou - is ons alweer op die apartheid wa, Afrikaanse SV, Engelse SV, Ander/plurale SV, Rebele SV, Teroriste SV of wat gaan nou aan ????

Ek het gedog dis verby en ons werk saam.

Elke een wil die kitaar slaan, maar die orkes bly vals,!!!!!!!

Kom ons kry rigting en besluit op n, dirigent en kry hierdie SA boom (een BOOM) orkes totdat dit kan klink soos , goeie orkes. waar elke Curator,Pro,Basic collaborator saam speel en ,n Geni Simfonie Orkes vorm

Further clarification is obviously needed!

Progenitor/Stamouer/Stamvader I understand to be attributed to the first person to start a line of descent in a country.

The inclusion of ANY progenitor should be acceptable in a project which is named South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors).

However - Mau has said that that project is about the Afrikaners, and so with this in mind should not include progenitors from other races - to my way of thinking that excludes the English as well as any other race be it Zulu, Indian, Chinese or Australian. This is Mau's requirement. So - to keep in line with Mau's guidelines the 1820 Settlers need to be in the 1820 Settlers Project - I do not see how someone can be both?

The name of the new project (South African Progenitors) and the original project [South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors)] to me mean exactly the same thing - apart from the inclusion of the word Stamouers there is no difference. The difference lies in Mau's intention that this be for Afrikaners only - his original words were white tribe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a project about a section/group of people. Just as there is a project about the 1820 Settlers and the Zulu Royalty. If this can be seen as establishing the apartheid way of thinking again then maybe Mau needs to seriously consider what he wants the original project to be about. Can it be about what is in the heading? - South African Stamouers/Progenitors and embrace ALL people who were the first to start lines of descent in South Africa, or not? Mau has says not. Hence the need for a project which co-ordinates the projects about the various groups of Progenitors.

So Daan, with your usual refreshing sense of humour you hit the nail on the head. Under Mau's ruling there needs to be some shuffling. The new layout (apart from the mis-naming of "Mau's" project) makes things clearer. That is the intention.

As Willem says - please can we play nicely together and create a Geni orchestra. I can understand afrikaans with the help of my skoelwordeboek - I would not make myself understood if I tried to translate this!

June

Much is being said about Mau. Much of it untrue. I see I will need to explain clearly where I come from and what my intentions are, as somehow everyone else know better than me what they are unless I do so. I do not have no time to do so now, so it will have to wait. There is much more to this than meet the eye.

June, please stop putting words in my mouth. Had you taken the time and effort to provide us (the collaborators) on Stamouers a proposal and explanation up front of what was envisaged, as I asked for numerous times and have still not received until your posting here, maybe we could find a way to do things as we have always done.

These were the last conversations we had on the subject I believe: http://www.geni.com/discussions/84745
http://www.geni.com/discussions/89131

Mau - are you suggesting that what i have explained about your intentions for the South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors) is incorrect? I thought you had made that very clear in the opening paragraph! Please do not present us with pages and pages of dialogue now - in one word answers can you address these questions please -

Is the South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors project as the name suggests about ALL people who started a line of descent in a country?

Is the South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors) project restricted to the Afrikaner Tribe in South Africa?

Yes or no to each question is all that is needed!

Allright you may all be pissed at me now :-). I have nothing to do with this topic, nor am I an Afrikaner, I am just a Dutch. But i read more discussions than only the Dutch. And it makes me (and I am not a participant of the issue) sad to read the way people "talk" to each other. Yes I have no clue of the subject, no I certainly do'nt have a clue who is right and who is wrong. I have no meaning about that. Only thing I say that people have an issue and cannot solve it en instead it becomes bigger and personal. This cannot be good for anyone. Not for Mauritz, not for Sharon, not for June. Each on is own way is a person with good intentions, each in his own way thinks he/she is right and maybe each in his own way thinks the way he/she handles this is a good way. One thing I am sure of: none of you wanted this to happen. I am also said for the Geni users, especially the users from South-Africa, dutch by born, english by born (I mean ..... parents) who ever. No one can have a good feeling about this. Everybody looses when things become so far and sadly so personal. I have no solution and as I said you may be mad at me for saying something in this discussion I have no part to. Well if that helps solving the problem or the emotions please do. I have no problem with that. I only want to say please try not to think of who is right or wrong but what works. What works is calmth and for everyone try to understand what the other wants and why? You don't have to agree with each other. Probably there is allready a long way passed, but maybe that way had emotions, One thing I have learned in live: when a subject is that emotional for me (and trust me In have those subjects in my life) I know I have to use my head and not my heart/emotions.
I wish you all well June, Mauritz, Sharon and your Geni-users.
I have a lot of respect for the curators (for me Mauritz is also a curator) and I have a lot of respect for people who mean well but not always succeed, well we are all human aren n't we? I wish you well and succes.

Thank you Jennie.
And on that same note - could people please stop using derogatory terms like 'Rooinek'. You may not mean it to be derogatory but it is ALWAYS taken as derogatory.

Thank you jennie and Brendan - well said. Enough now.

June, I do not have time for participating, but please let us allow people to say what they feel here? I hear "enough now" to interpret we should stop speaking. From my perspective Open and Honest communication is very much required in this kind of situation. More off it not less. I may be wrong, but I have other experience that supports what I am suggesting adds value not detract.

Brendan, I am so glad you said that about 'Rooinek'. I was also the 'Rockspider' and 'Dutchman' at my english school. I don't think we use these terms meaning derogatory. We just come from our own cultural thinking and it is mostly innocent or unconscious. Someone alerted me to the text on SV/PROG being considered racism. "white tribe". It is much the same thing. People would feel it derogatory from their social and cultural point of reference.

I though I was being poetic at the time really. 'Tribe' is a beautiful concept for me and so important in many ways for many of us. And well, I'm part of the white one. I cannot really help that. That is who I am. I'm also a 'Rooinek' and a 'Rockspider' and a 'Dutchman'. I am also a 'Boer' and 'Voortrekker' and French and German and Prussian and Norman, and Viking and Khoisan and San and Angolan and Indian and Madagascan..

We give words much power and when it comes to our identity it is personal. We do need to try an keep crossing our devides in this respect if we are ever going to get to win win between our different cultures?! Take each other maybe a little less seriously. I know that is said coming from me....

...but you are not prepared to answer 2 very straight forward questions with either Yes or No Mau - you have time instead to write eloquently scooting around the question. Interesting.

June for you it seems to come down to 2 questions. For me it is complex. I did note that earlier? So I'm asking for the same. An opportunity to come back and say what I am thinking.

I've added some groundrules to the SV/PROG projects. I think if we keep them in mind they could help us in our communication on tough subjects like these. At least they are tough for me.

..... and a chirp from an inexperienced genealogist .....

My family is SO deurmekaar, I'm not entirely sure whether I am an English-woman with a TON of Afrikaans blood or an English-speaking Afrikaner!

Under whose project do I fall?

Caroline - you are not a Progenitor!

I love quotes. Still thinking about all this and have a question from June to answer but in doing so came accross this quote today that I thought is relevent to this conversation in some ways:

"In any free society, the conflict between social conformity and individual liberty is permanent, unresolvable, and necessary. - Kathleen Norris -"

Caroline SV/PROG is about the "genealogy" more than the "history" of the following specific people:

(changed tribe to people now as it seems white tribe may be interpreted as racist)

They came by ship mostly from Europe but also from all ports on the VOC's trade routes and made the wild, abundant and beautiful southern point of Africa the Cape of Good Hope their home. Their descendants populated the Cape and 'trekked' northwards by ox wagon spreading across the region. Today they are the white people of South Africa and continuing their adventures, they have spread in small numbers to all over the world. This project is a tribute to them and all their descendants.

Project Objectives

•Provide a list of South African Progenitors in Geni and make them readily identifiable in tree view.
•Establish a standard for how we structure their profiles and work towards sharing our collective information to get our Geni tree in this area as accurate as possible.
•Assist to inform and guide our Geni community so as to achieve a uniform approach across our tree.
•Have some fun doing it...

Still don't have time to go into the detail and I think it is important that we do. Nice weekend everyone.

Hallo almal/Hello all,
Willem ek stem saam met jou - kom ons beweeg aan. Ons skep 'n baie swak indruk van Suid Afrikaners op hierdie manier.
Jennie, ek geniet julle portaal vreeslik want ek kan my taal praat en julle jul taal en ons verstaan mekaar en niemand word verkeerd verstaan nie.
Daan, dankie vir jou reaksie.
I think all in all we should rather need to open a project called learn each others LANGUAGE. Genade, we are after all doing the same thing and that is working in the interest of Geneaologie to save the past for our children and grandchildren - but at this stage it is becoming like the second Anglo Boer War. I really think this is "onnodig". See I will rather say the Afrikaans word en then nobody can misunderstand me.
As with the Nederlandse and Vlaamse, group it is so wonderful to see how they work together - my reaction to that is they can make there meaning clear in there own language and nobody is being misunderstood or mis interpreted. Sjoe Daan en June and Mau, please correct the words.
I am not saying we should just speak Afrikaanse on the SA side, we are after all a nation with 11 languages. But that is impossible. Daan gooi ons bietjie 'n ander taal jong. I am asking Daan to give a sentence in one of the African languages, and see who knows what. All I can say is "Yebo Gogo."
I promised myself I an not going to respond to any depastes that is putting my country and its people in bad light, but I really feel - JUNE AND MAU HAVE THE SAME WAY BUT THEY TALK PAST EACH OTHER.
Love you all. Lief vir julle almal.
Praat weer. Not a good week ahead off me.
Juds

Hello.....
I too have not been at Genealogy very long. I have heard this is the discussion where it is possible to have a lineage checked in 12 minutes for a chirp. I was hoping that a quack may also receive the same

ttfn Have a nice day

So - the questions remain unanswered but need a minor change to the wording -

Is the South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors) project as the name suggests about ALL people who started a line of descent in a country?

Is the South African Stamouers/Progenitors (sub heading SV/PROG South African Stamouers/Progenitors) project restricted to the White People of South Africa?

Yes or no to each question is all that is needed!

June I will try and answer you as best I can as this question can be misunderstood and wrongly interpreted. I just feel it can't just be a yes or no answer.
I don't want another rage outbreak between any of my friends, please.
In short - Is the projects in question about - I will use abbr - SV/PROG in SA or about users in SA and abroad?
I should think if a SV/PROG is say, for instance you working on a project and you get connected by family related way, it would indeed be for all- i.e. SA, English like yourself that are family related on many lines in SA, and to me, through your parents or grandparents, then yes it is for only European SV.
I cannot think that a Zulu or Xhosa is related to myself or you. Maybe Koi yes - LOL - because the SV/PROG were very naughty.
But should a non-european ( much better than black) join and start on SV/PROG in SA for sure yes that person could be related to either Zulu or Xhosa and all 9 other in SA.
So I would say the question should rather be asked - do we want the SV/PROG to be the same as those of the non-europeans or should there rather be one for them alone.
What do you think? Please everybody, you know me, I am not a racist, nor against English or what ever person, I just would like to have a project where we can all join hands as from the SV/PROG in SA, whether you start from Iceland and find your way through to a "hit" in SV/PROG of SA, then you are related on that project.
Have a lovely sleep, it is way past my bedtime.
May the new week bring love, support, understanding and lots of problems being solved for all of you.
Juds

SV/PROG should be for the start of a bloodline in South Africa. If a persons line is within the country and one draws a blank at a certain generation, due to lack of historical records, etc., that person is not a bloodline beginner. Therefore, all bloodlines which began with an immigrant should be on SV/PROG, and no others.

Ek het 'n seun en 'n dogter en dogter genaamd Uam en Norahs. Hulle is twee jong en intelligente mense, maar is beide bietjie hardkoppig. Wat hulle nie weet nie, is dat 'n mens se oor se gehoormeganisme gekoppel is aan jou hart. Wanneer jou hart oor 100 slae per minuut gaan, dan druk dit jou gehoorsenuwees toe en jy kan niks hoor wat iemand anders sê nie, net wat in jou eie kop aangaan. Hulle albei se harte gaan dikwels oor 100 en dan slaan die ore toe. Wanneer die ore toeslaan, dan wil jy net kopstamp eerder as koppe bymekaar te sit. Ek dink as julle oor 'n paar jaar terugdink oor hulle botsings, sal julle spyt wees dat julle mekaar so gestriem het met woorde. Uam en Norahs, kry daardie hartklop af en luister na mekaar - julle het beide waardevolle insette te lewer! En in elk geval hou ek nie van die bloedkolle op my mat nie!

I have a son and a daughter called Uam and Norahs. They are both young and intelligent, but have a problem that they are both a bit stubborn. What they do not know is that a human ear's hearing mechanism is connected to your heart. When your heart beats over 100 beats per minute, then it chokes you hearing nerves and your ear can not detect what someone else says, it just detects what is churning in your own mind. I noticed that both your hearts often beat over 100 and then the ears stop functioning. When the ears crack, then you would just be banging heads rather than putting heads together. I think when in future you reflect about your clashes, you will regret that you berated each other. Aum and Norahs get that heart rate down and listen to each other - you both valuable inputs to make! And anyway I do not like blood spots on my carpet!

Yes, Roger, as you say, the words mean different things:

A PROGENITOR: is the start of the bloodline in a country. (So that project collects all first fathers/mothers of a line that still has descendants in SA.) In the case of each family of settlers to SA, the progenitors are usually only the oldest father & mother.

SETTLER groups came in waves, usually from a point of origin that we can use as a useful name for a project: eg French Huguenots; or 1820 Settlers; or Nguni migration. But there will be settlers who come on their own, who don't fit easily into any big settler project.

So ALL PROGENITORS IN SA ARE SETTLERS (except for the tiny Koisan group, whose origins are so far back they were never 'immigrants' at any time we can identify - ie - they have 'always' been here as far back as history tells us),
BUT NOT ALL SETTLERS ARE THE DESIGNATED 1ST PROGENITOR OF A FAMILY LINE.

Daan I cannot say much more that that I think you are being so unfair!

I am so happy to identify myself as something other than a curator associated with a country where so much ugly bickering over simply including everyone who lives there happens.

Adding one black profile to the progenitors page of a country where three quarters of the population are black shouldn't cause this kind of embarrassing uproar!

It has just seemed so cowardly to duck out - but, after 6 months of fighting - I'm doing it.

Daan goed gesê. Sharon I do think that the Hugenote is equally important.
Lekker dag. Have a lovely day.

Of to he doctor and them I will start working on my own Personal Ancestral File and those of my clients.

Jennie
Thanks for you inset to this mad house. This population is so varied
they don't even understand each other within the family group.

"They came by ship mostly from Europe but also from all ports on the VOC's trade routes and made the wild, abundant and beautiful southern point of Africa the Cape of Good Hope their home. Their descendants populated the Cape and 'trekked' northwards by ox wagon spreading across the region. Today they are the white people of South Africa and continuing their adventures, they have spread in small numbers to all over the world. This project is a tribute to them and all their descendants."

For me, changing tribe to people is not the main issue in the paragraph above. By writing they " "trekked" northwards by ox wagon spreading across the region." you are identifying a sub-set of the white immigrants to South Africa - the Afrikaners. Then going on to write that "Today they are the white people of South Africa" further implies that this sub-set only this sub-set (the Afrikaners) today make up the white people of South Africa. This is incorrect and ignores the contribution made by many: the 1820 settlers; the settlers in Natal; and later white immigrants (e.g. post the various wars) to South Africa.

The definition of this group needs to be made clear - is it for all progenitors, or is it only for white progenitors who landed at the Cape of Good Hope? This is the question that June asked and has not been answered yet.

Some people may not understand the nuances of this discussion, but it is important that we get it correct, so that all people with South African ancestry have a place to engage and contribute.

My family has roots in both camps and my pulse rate is quite normal thank you.